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Old 2013-01-13, 16:21   Link #31654
jjblue1
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Of course the question then becomes, how much of the 1998 stuff are we to take as "reliable information" about 1998 itself?

As an example, the stories of Dr. Nanjo and Kumasawa's sons. They both more or less verify the "strange keys sent by a weird mailing method that open bank boxes packed with unidentified cash" story. But they're contained within a 1998 story in which Ange jumps off a building, survives, goes on the run from Kasumi, doesn't visit Hachijou Tohya, and does visit Rokkenjima. We know those details about Ange's actions are subject to variation (in ep6, she does visit "Tohya," and in ep8, she basically does something completely different).

So what about the money boxes? It's an odd detail to add because it doesn't actually influence Ange's story in any significant way. Does that mean it's "true information" about the Prime world that happens to be included in a story, in much the same way that Ange not being present in 1986 is "true information" that happens to be included in most Rokkenjima Forgeries?

Ultimately, I don't know that we know, but we sort of assume it (much like the fact that the message bottles themselves were published and that the Witch Hunters exist). Future information would provide some confirmation. For example, "1998 Prime" probably would be able to tell us stuff like, did Amakusa and Captain Kawabata die? If Kawabata's still alive and never remembers taking Ange to Rokkenjima, then either she never went or he took her, survived, and started lying about it. If Kawabata is dead, how did he die and how would people know it? Likewise the building jump story. Did Ange actually jump off a building at any point? If she didn't, where did that tale get started? There was an implication that it was publicized, but was it? In Prime we could look up newspaper archives, so that would be well-known in the future.
Technically it's hard to say which information is true and which is not.

The info about the keys must be true for all the gameboards and is confirmed by Our Confession as well. Is it true for Prime? if it's true Yasu really paid people and comes to wonder why?
Was it for the murder game or for a mere mystery game? If it was for an innocent mystery game then why send the money in such way when she could have handed the keys personally... unless she planned to disappear anyway?
But then she could have sent the money after disappearing, there was no need to send it earlier unless she wanted to fake her death (which could be the mysterious thing that would have happened has Battler not returned).

In short, if people were paid, Yasu was probably up to something.

But can we prove that the keys were really sent?

Not really, actually likely this info for the people of Prime is in a catbox of which they don't even know the existence.

The bank is probably not spreading the info and maybe it doesn't even know the connection between the money and Rokkenjima.

The people involved aren't talking. Apparently they would talk about it with Ange but only Ange and Amakusa can confirm this and they disappeared.

Likely this info is not in the messages in the bottle or the police might have controlled if this really happened, it would become of public domain and Ange wouldn't need to go to someone to discover it.

So the only ones who can be aware of the keys existence (if the keys existed) are the people who received them, Ange (if she really went to talk with them) and Tohya (if Battler learnt about it by Yasu).

Now... assuming the future of Ange is a speculation either done by Ange as she wonders about her future or by Tohya as he wonders about what happened to Ange, they both can add the existence of the keys to their tale about Ange's fate while ordinary people could, at best, merely add the part of Ange visiting certain people (as this info could have been discovered).

So, my guess is that the tales of Ange's adventures are 'written' by either Ange or Tohya. As Ange doesn't seem to have solved the tales, she would add the detail of the key only if it were true.
Tohya, on the other side, of course can write a story in which he pictures Ange discovering about the keys but could also be tempted to mix a fantasy with the truth... however... which would be the point of picturing an immaginary story of Ange in which Ange has no chance to do a certain thing?

I like to think that if there's Tohya behind Ange's tales it's because he was trying to picture what happened to his sister and not because he wanted to give us extra hints about the mystery of Rokkenjima.

So, for me, the keys really existed even though I seriously doubt that, apart from the people directly involved, someone knows about their existence.

What instead is interesting is what has to be of public domain to make the stories 'possible'.

Not only we've to assume that Ange disappeared (the jumping off a building and surviving it's probably not of public domain as even the tale make a point of saying that's not possible so it's likely a fantasy, a fear, a gossip or a metaphor to represent a change in Ange) but that, after Ange disappeared Amakusa had to disappear as well (being Amakusa an unknown guy this shouldn't cause problems) but also Kuwabata and, what's most important, Ange's aunt (with all her bodyguards).

Of course it's possible that while Ange became Kotobuki Yukari, Ange's aunt was killed by Okonogi's men without even involving Ange. Kuwabata might have ended up being involved or he could have felt sick while out with his ship and fallen on the sea where he died and his body was never recovered.

Probably only a small number of people in Prime would realize Kuwabata died and maybe no one would realize Amakusa died/disappeared... however Kasumi, being someone important

Still, to Ange's story in Ep 4 possible we need to have Kasumi disappearing/dying and there's no real confirmation of this so... well, I don't know. I like to think Sumadera Kasumi really disappeared but we know that the forgeries themselves didn't bother with 'sticking with prime' as Eva survives in EP 3 but not in Ep 4.

So maybe we aren't really supposed to know much about Prime, only what's useful to solve the gameboards. This however reduces Prime to some sort of subplot that exists only to give some minor info (that could have been inserted in other ways) and to deal with how hurtful is speculating on a tragedy and how everyone reacts differently to a tragedy (Ange chosing her own truth).

Considering however that Ange might not even be Prime Ange but only Piece Ange (and Ange often defines herself as a Piece in the witches and in Battler's game) the point is weak.
Real Prime Ange might have been a bullied kid who had fallen in love with Amakusa and transferred to USA without showing any interest in discovering the truth.

And while from one side it's interesting Umineko allows this kind of speculations again I wish for something 'more concrete' to work with.

However Ryukishi seemed to imply that the real 'ending' is the fantasy one so I guess that is what, according to him, appened to Ange. Or not?

Anyone has a better idea?
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