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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9

We were asking ourselves how beato died. And I thought she might have died of blood-loss. This is most probably wrong. Because its clearly stated in umineko who killed beato- for that we have the whole 7th episode -the result was: Only the one who created Beato could have killed her. It was not kyrie, not eva, nobody but “Sayo” herself. There is also a big hint we all probably didn’t pay much attention to:

In episode 4, once Battler says - as an answer to Beatos test - that he absolutely cant remember anything about a sin, in the VN there are two beatos who talk to each other. The first one is giving up and the other one is taking on the job. While the first one seems to be on the verge of tears and lets the 2nd beato take over, the 2nd beato is far more cruel – she immediately burns kinzo alive and threatens all the other furniture. Shes achieving her goal in a much rougher way – or better: has given up on the original goal to make battler remember.

Keep in mind the Beatrice on Prime isn't exactly just the character Beatrice. Only Sayo is able to kill just the character, but she herself can be killed by anyone. Beatrice then just dies with her, as her mind cannot maintain the character anymore, Sayo gives up shortly before dying or Beatrice already died when the siblings solved the epitaph and she lost the game. It's something like that. I don't believe what's said in EP7 prevents Sayo from being killed by Kyrie, it's more about the rules of her game board.

I think the two Beatrices that talk on the balcony represent the character Beatrice and Sayo herself, the true person behind the crime. Sayo is devastated when Battler cannot remember his promise, and the character Beatrice takes over and carries the game to its conclusion.

Again – what is the “trauma”? Must be something similar to what happened in ep 6. Now I really do not want to spell it out, but whoever has seen the scene with the ring in ep 6 cant tell me he didn’t feel the HEAVY sexual implications this had. I mean the manga even drew the pictures accordingly. this is NOT me being a pervert or something, Im just a normal adult that happens to think like this once something like that is shown. It’s a perfectly normal – and I assume intended – association. If someone is putting saliva on something to make something “stick in” more easily, I cant help but think we’re talking about something completely different here, not just a ring and a finger. I don’t want to spell it out. there exists a torture device, a ring, that does exactly that and works in the way erika described it in the wedding. it looks like the ring erika gives him with the spikes on the inside and also looks something like the "ring" in the picture we see in manga ep 4 of the room under the kuwadorian, and in reality its fastened with a screw, the same way as erika uses the diamond of the ring to drive the spikes into his finger. if you want to know, google it and imagine the rest yourself please…i wont describe it any more...

What if all this alludes to Kuwadorian Beatrice and the state of Sayo's body instead of something that happened to Battler? It could also be a twisted version of the engagement plans between Sayo and George. George corners Sayo with a time limit when he plans to give her a ring. Perhaps Sayo imagined George's true personality might at worst be something like Erika in EP6.

While it is peculiar that Touya feels older than he should, it might just be psychological. Here are some of the problems I see with your theory. One, it basically makes Battler go through the meta story twice for no reason, if he again loses his memory after solving the game on the island. Two, even if Eva was rescued from Kuwadorian, they never found Battler. It's true it might not be that simple to find the underground area, but still. Three, Beatrice lost the game when the siblings solved the epitaph. Four, Beatrice was probably at least wounded so she might not have survived for that long. It is also said in red that Beatrice died in October of 1986. Five, it is heavily implied that Battler did not solve the game before Beatrice died, so she couldn't be the one to let him out of the room. Six, what would Battler eat to live that long in a cell? I guess it's devil proof that there is a massive food storage in Kuwadorian, but no one really even uses the place any more.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Also, does the event where Ikuko trolls everyone by revealing the truth takes place in both timelines AFTER Ange faked her death (magic timeline) or really died (trick timeline). Because it seems to me that after Ange read Eva's diary, she died, either on the building (magic timeline) or at sea (trick timeline). Then afterwards, the nurse collected the diary and had it sent to Ikuko. When would Ange in the real world would have read CotGW?

I think the event where Ikuko was supposed to reveal the contents of Ange's diary happens after Ange's "death", as Ikuko could only get the book after Eva died in 1998 and Ange shortly after. It probably happens in all the timelines. About Confession, I don't believe Ange ever actually read it as it didn't happen in the visual novel and the information just came to her through the meta world in the manga.

If this is the case, then this would account as to why Ikuko was able to say red truth in the real world, since red truth is apparently a witch's words in the VN when Ange read Eva's diary.

This is indeed one of the reasons I believe Ikuko is actually a witch.

Could it be that the real Erika Furudo is not actually a mystery fan? Could the Erika we know be a sort of avatar of Ange's to try and solve the forgeries? Yes, Erika is Bernkastel's piece, but is it possible that in the meta-sense, Erika and Ange could have been perceived as separate but on one body? Could it be that at some point after Ange killed her fantasy friends, she took it upon herself to try and solve some forgeries using Knox's Decalogue? Could Dlanor be a sort of replacement for Mammon, with Ange going from fantasy to mystery? Because it seems like after killing her imaginary friends is when she stopped believing in fantasy, which is similar to Erika in the sense that they don't believe in magic. Also, in EP6, Erika literally called Dlanor PAPER, which could mean that Dlanor is a piece of paper (or if Ange is somewhat connected to Erika a page in the grimoire) in which Knox's Decalogue is written on it?

I've been thinking about this as well, but it might just be that they were written similar for thematical reasons.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, I've always thought the diary would be a little self absolving.
In the diary she can write that Natsuhi was killed by incident and the same happened to Krauss and that she got rid of Kyrie and Rudolf because they were murderers who tried to kill her and would have tried to do so again so she's sort of telling herself it was self defence and she blasted the island away because she didn't want Ange to find out the horrible stuffs her parents did but if she forced Battler to leave the island while there was a storm because she refused to take Sayo with them and they didn't make it... then it's murder without any excuse.

It would tie nicely with Ep 3 in which Eva shot Battler.

She would have forced him to take a decision that, she knew, was suicidal, and all to cover up her own crime. She might have told him 'if we carry with us a girl that has a bullet wound we won't be able to cover this anymore and your sister will know what your parents did' and he might have agreed that in order to cover up things he would have to find another way to bring Sayo to safety and therefore we'll have them agreeing to keep everything hidden and 'closing the door' but well... I think she would have known that the other way was so dangerous it was almost suicide and that covering up the truth for Ange wouldn't be worth her brother's life.

In "10 little indians" one of the murderers is considered a murderer because during war he sent a man in a mission from which he couldn't possibly return alive. When he ends up on the island he's old and he's sort of paranoid. It fits with Eva even if she ended up much worse than this.
Ange's accusation she was a murderer she would have stuck even harder due to this.

It's possible. Eva could write it in that manner to feel a bit better about herself. White magic for herself or more like black magic for shifting most of the blame to others? Eva seems to act as the embodiment of the black witch, after all. I also like it metaphorically tying into Eva shooting Battler in EP3, because that's a thing I've been trying to incorporate into Prime myself. The reference to And then there were none is a good catch too.

I don't think your interpretation is that off from truth although I see it more as a psychological thing. Natsuhi feels guilty for Lion's 'death' but probably sees it also as something that's connected to Jessica's birth. She claims demons and angels fulfilled her wish giving her a child and causing the other to disappear but she knows she caused the 'demise' of Lion. Yet because Lion is no more Jessica is the heir, nest in line after Krauss.
Her complicate feelings likely translated in her suffering in even stronger migraines of the ones she was used at (it's also said that her migraines were an inborn condition) but accepting them because she believed that what she did benefitted Jessica.

Yes, it's definitely psychological. No way it's a deal with demons, right? That'd be silly.
It's true that "her own biological child could not have become the heir if she had accepted Lion" might factor into it.

What I was trying to say is that they took the alias Itouikukuro Reigonamu not to represent themselves but Sayo. They got her that alias and posted her tales under that alias.

End is pretty bizzarre and Beatrice doesn't acknowledge it as her own (after all it's Lambda's game).

That's why I prefer to think they found two more messages... and then, when they couldn't find them anymore Ikuko tried writing one on her own but it turned out messy because he refused to help and Ikuko, not being Sayo, ended up making Sayo OOC. But well, this still doesn't work well because it assumes she either hadn't read Confession or hadn't understood it even if it spelled out the motive rather clearly.

End actually does represent Sayo, if in a twisted fashion. It still follows the rules of her games, but focuses the motive on the origin of her misfortune. Remember that Lambdadelta actually does know the truth about Beatrice, which would mean Ikuko writing End would know too. Sayo is the man from 19 years ago, and we see that Lambdadelta, the creator of this game board, poses as him behind the phone. It could be said that it is Sayo's game, but not Beatrice's, as the game doesn't care about the trial of love. I think Ikuko was having fun twisting the setting a bit and adding a more active detective, but did not break the rules.

I'll prefer it's because he wanted to solve them himself because otherwise I think puzzling other the forgeries would cause him more harm than Confession.
Though if Ikuko figured out he's Battler she might feel that, as a act of kindness toward Sayo, it would be nicer toward her to let him solve the stories instead than handing him the solution.
After all she wanted him to solve them. So I like to think Ikuko took advantage of the fact Tohya might not remember well about her having found Confession for causing Confession to temporally disappear. By the time of Ep 7 he finally solved everything and she finally let him read it... so in a way Confession is Clair and Tohya is Will.

I meant that getting all of the truth at once would hurt him, but that he could endure it if they went at it slowly writing the forgeries. I'm a supporter of the idea that Will represents Touya. He has that streak of red hair connecting him to Battler, while still being a stranger because he isn't Battler anymore. Clair I take is a combination of the confession hidden in each message bottle and that would naturally connect her to Confession of the Golden Witch as well. I'm not sure if Touya would forget that Ikuko has the Confession bottle, maybe it even made him more confident that Ikuko does have the correct truth. The issue of if Beatrice can be trusted is brought up several times, and it could stem from the question "are those red pages really written by Beatrice?".

I wonder if actually in Prime Ep 5 is nothing else but someone else writing a forgery using Itouikukuro's nick because he's famous. After all Ep 5 is pretty different from the other tales. Not only it gets interrupted midway but has an OOC Sayo and a different detective.
To use Erika's words maybe it was a third rate mistery written by a nobody under Itouikukuro's nick.
And the "real" Itouikukuro might have answered it by rewriting it in a better way so as to prove the other was a fake ence the two solutions.
But again, we don't really know.

It's possible, but I believe the misinterpretations would come from Bernkastel's side, as Lambda did actually know the truth all along. I think Ikuko wrote it to near the end of the trial and Touya finished it with a theory scapegoating Battler.

LOL, someone please stop me, I'm likely seeing too much in what are very likely only coincidences... like how the Castiglione also show up in the DC...

I'm pretty sure all the names are taken from it intentionally, how the events relate to Umineko is up to interpretation in most places. Reminds me that I actually need to read it as I have been planning to for some time, it might give me interesting ideas.

I'll say more that when red truth is used in what looks like the real world is likely a hint we're in a story as it's said over and over that red truth in the real world doesn't exist but this might be just me.

I think Ikuko could actually speak the red in the real world, as it is not literally a real world, but a world close to a real world created by Ryuukishi-Featherine. What Ikuko speaks in the convention is the literal word of god if it existed in our world. Of course it could also represent the audience's absolute trust in Hachijou Touya's expertise.