Thread: Licensed Girls und Panzer
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Old 2013-03-14, 08:52   Link #4642
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Hey now, Black Hawk Down is widely regarded as a complete military and intelligence failure. The dispatch of the convoy to the first downed helicopter was also a complete disaster.
I was referring to the sentiments expressed by the movie, which pretty much sum up the infantry mindset.

And yes, I'm well aware of the problems with the raid - I've see the movie multiple times, and I make it a point to read the book at least once a year. I was referring to the sentiments expressed.

This is the fun-vee, the humdrum-vee is over there.

Quote:
Let me put this in simple terms:
Miho upon seeing an incident occurs, as person in command, leaves her post and jumps to action herself --
A) The situation was dangerous (and rehashed via facts and counter-fact below) -- if they could not get out themselves then she would not be able to assist simply by herself and was therefore derelict of her own actual duty
B) The situation was not dangerous and therefore her actions were completely unnecessary -- which means that she did not remain calm in a time of crisis and failed as a leader
Again, since IXJac said it better than me, I'm reposting his words, bolded for emphasis:


It's not even close to a difficult decision. You stop the exercise and ensure the safety of the crew in the tank in the river. Soldiers can and have died when their vehicle fell into water, so it's a complete no-brainer. Anyone who would continue a mere exercise and forgo the chance to ensure their safety has their priorities badly out of whack. In the Canadian Forces, they would be charged for negligence, and probably have criminal proceedings brought against them if any of the fallen tank's crew actually died while they continued to play war.

And whether your assistance is actually physically needed is completely irrelevant. You do not have a crystal ball, you do not know whether your assistance is required. At worst, they do need assistance, and you are removing their chance of survival. At best, by continuing the exercise you are distracting others now dealing with serious real life problems, with your silly exercise bullshit. You stop training (this goes for BOTH sides in a force on force) and stand by to render any assistance to those in need as required.


Quote:
So, a military analog, is:
-Platoon leader forsakes their command role and runs out to help someone that may or may not be in danger and leaves their platoon leaderless!

How about a sports analog:
-QB runs back preparing to throw, sees one of his linesmen completely demolished and instead of continuing to play runs over to see if he can help?
I acknowledge that Miho's actions were not completely perfect. However, I think you have ignored what I've posted about her actions being in line with how a professional 1st world force operates. Her execution might be off, but she was also in the best position to render assistance - which, as the anime shows, she was right.

You're also implicitly assuming that her radio operator is too incompetant to report the situation and advise Black Forest forces of the change in paradigm.

Quote:
Do you not notice that you are also dismissing every bit of evidence presented to you no matter what?

Look folks, people keep falling into differing tangents and drawing weak analogies to instances of "safety first!" "protect your comrades!" "ideals!" -- but these are not perfect analogies. Getting led into a strawman argument comparison is not what it's about. The question is this: was Miho's response based on the fact of the matter reasonable? Beyond a doubt? Did she perform her duty? Did she fail to perform her duty?
Can't say for the others, but I've really felt that the roots of the issue were the differing paradigms and beliefs held by Shiho and Miho. On one hand, we have Shiho's Victory at all Cost paradigm, which includes sacrificing a tank crew with a very real risk of death or serious injury, for the sake of a winner's trophy. On the other hand we have Miho, who prioritizes her crew/subordinates over victory.

As for the questions you pose, I'd personally opine that her actions were reasonable, and that given that she saved the crew, I'd count that as a positive. As to performing her duty, that depends on how you would describe her duty: is it her duty to win the tournament, or is it also her duty to be responsible for her team members? As IXJac noted, any Canadian Forces member who'd ignore the crew would be up on charges. We can draw inferences from there.

Miho performed her duty towards her subordinates. The only thing I'd add is that she should have really broadcasted some kind of emergency alert instruction, or a notification, though if one were charitable, one might hope that her crew would have enough initiative to do the same thing.
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