Thread: Licensed Girls und Panzer
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Old 2013-03-14, 10:28   Link #4647
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Let me put this in simple terms:
Miho upon seeing an incident occurs, as person in command, leaves her post and jumps to action herself --
A) The situation was dangerous (and rehashed via facts and counter-fact below) -- if they could not get out themselves then she would not be able to assist simply by herself and was therefore derelict of her own actual duty
B) The situation was not dangerous and therefore her actions were completely unnecessary -- which means that she did not remain calm in a time of crisis and failed as a leader
Let's not limit the variations:
How about C: The situation was in-between A&B, so they couldn't get out by themselves but if someone helps them they can.
Or D: They couldn't get out for another reason, but it doesn't mean someone (even one) can't save them.
Or E (which is probably closest to the truth): The situation was indeterminate and thus it is not possible for her to evaluate how much she can help. However, it is clear that if she can help and she delays helping, the overall chances of her help being useful goes down.

Of course, it can be agreed that she did not take the best action. Certainly I agree that the chances she'll be able to do something will be massively increased if for example she ordered her whole platoon off their tanks and into the river (at the cost they'll also be put at some risk, admittedly). But then, no one pretends that Miho is the perfect commander, and even less so at that stage.

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So, a military analog, is:
-Platoon leader forsakes their command role and runs out to help someone that may or may not be in danger and leaves their platoon leaderless!
If he "may or may not" be in danger, he is. Danger is risk of harm.

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was Miho's response based on the fact of the matter reasonable?
Perfectly unless you have value systems great deviant from contemporary norm. Even if you assume the chance she may make a difference to be oh, 1%, I think most people can agree human lives are at least worth 100 times a victory at a high-school level competition.

It arguably isn't the best move. The best move would have been to use her platoon's (now only a section) manpower as well. But it is reasonable.

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Did she perform her duty
Let's define her duty first. If it is similar to stereotypical military, it'll be "Mission and the men", and most modern militaries think if the mission is small enough, the men can come first.

The smallness of the mission aside (it isn't even like Kuromorimine will fold up due to this loss), it is further cut by at least three possibilities:

1) At that point, she can stay in the tank, and the mission will still fail (based on the on-screen performance I think that's what will happen). In such a case, the only thing to do is to save what you might still be able to save ... the men.
2) In the opposite direction, she can leave the tank and the immediate task (fighting off the oncoming T-34/85s) would still get done. KMM is supposed to be the elite school and the enemy is only dead ahead. Is it too much to expect that if they aren't going to leave the tanks in an attempt to save their comrades, they can still take the correct actions without her intervention? Of course, it is more conventional to have other people go and do the "men" part, but duty is still fully served if the mission is done.
3) She can ignore her sinking tank and successfully fight off the Pravdan tanks, thus fulfilling her part of the mission if not her duty to the men, but it can all be rendered meaningless because KMM loses the larger battle. Go to 1.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
So, here's IXJac's statement above:
1) They can stop the exercise! -- No, they cannot, they were in a match. They lacked that authority. I don't even know if they could call for a stop to the match but the match based on the portrayal in the show was not stopped. This was not their decision to make.
They could ignore the running "exercise" and start rescuing. Sure, they'll lose, but that's it.

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The Senshado organization did not stop the match. Either 1) because there was no real danger,
Pretty unlikely. Putting bets on the supposed merits of side hatches seem extremely thin.

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2) the danger is considered acceptable or 3) Senshado matches are simply not stopped?
Or 4) if you gave them more time, they will agree it is unacceptable, but the Senshado organization has a slow decision making process in these things. This version is IMO kindly of implied in Ep9.

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3) You don't know if you can help but you should go see anyways! -- Whoa, hold on there partner, as the leader of the platoon you must make calm impartial decisions. Running into help in an unnecessary circumstance will -- 1) disrupt the chain of command
And the consequences of that will be no worse than losing a game when they could have won.

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2) could potentially make things worse. From what we saw portrayed, Miho, upon seeing the tank go under jumped out of her tank and dived into the water. Her crew did nothing.
Well, if Miho deserves some criticism, it is here. How can that crew be so helpless just because the commander ran off? Miho obviously needs to train them better!

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No one else did anything.
The lag tank was moving up.

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She left the chain of command absolutely paralyzed and dove underwater. Do I need to finish my thought? She could have drowned? She could have added to the lives needing to be rescued?
Let me grant that there is a non-zero possibility that she could have drowned. On the other hand, Miho is clearly quite a good swimmer (it didn't look real elegant but she was clothed and did reach the tank against the current), so perhaps it was negligible. It could be a valid reason why she didn't use the section's manpower - the waves were relatively high and she was the best (maybe even the only) swimmer.

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One tank already fell into the water .. her abandoning her tank could have made the situation much much much worse. All we can assess is what we are shown on screen and any person looking at it coldly and dispassionately can see it was not decision making and leadership at it's finest.
I will grant there is room for saying there are more optimal variants in the big decision to save them. The variant to not save them however, is unconvincing.

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I am not debating ideals here folks -- I am discussing the facts of the matter as portrayed on a screen. It is unclear from the footage and dialogue that Miho was effective at all. If anything, based on my recollection, the only time I heard that Miho actually "saved" anyone was one of her current teammates at Oorai saying: "I'm sure they're happy you tried to save them"
Thanks can be for effort rather than result, but to be fair, in Ep10, Yukari did say "仲間を助け*た*西住…", using the past tense. If we take it literally, Miho did defy all the odds and saved them.

But then, I don't think it is critically important whether she did or not. Even if she did, we can still look at the odds and say it was still a bad decision and she got lucky. And failure similarly may be no more than bad luck.

I think the show deliberately shies from making it rock-clear, and inserts a few lines to imply she did to counter the natural doubt that such a petite little girl could have effected the rescue, aiming it to leave it close to 50-50 in the viewerships' minds.

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Same with Miho being a perfect depiction of a hero. A calm collected hero or a frail emotional young girl?
Is there anyone that sees Miho as a "perfect depiction of a hero"? The show would have been much less amusing if she was!

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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Now for a subject that's a bit more delectable. Okay, make that a lot more...

YouTube
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The dedication is impressive. I don't think I can bear to eat it - it is so well made.
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