[Captain Bluebeard]

Originally Posted by pikablu

I just want to say that Rosa is still my murderer. This is to do with the most vital of clues...but I want to discuss something which is way more important! Don't worry I shall talk about why later.

The ShKanon Theory in my opinion is not right and does not work.

Good for you. Having your own interpretation of the truth is actually the whole point of Umineko, so I'm not going to argue against your theory, but you should really do the same. Plus Shkanon was kinda the intended answer, just saying.

1) EP5 - Erika talks to everyone

If that's about the notorious parlor scene, there's no red confirming the actual number of people in the room. Plus Lambdadelta and Bern were totally in cahoots there, so as long as there's no red, they can just look the other way.

Or, if Erika was in on the Shkanon stuff by then, it's possible to show an illusion with both of them in the same place at the same time.

Battler is the detective in EP1-4.

Say, what?

Thus, he will see through illusions. Kanon and Shannon are different people because they were noticed by Battler to be 2 different people

Okay, that is just totally wrong. Battler cannot see through illusions, and he never made a detective proclamation in any Episode, so I really don't see where the assumption that he is the detective comes from. He is the main character and no one ever proclaimed him to be a detective. Even Erika can't skip the detective proclamation in order for her to have all the detective "super-powers".

But even if he were, that doesn't mean he'd know they're two different people right away.

3) EP6 - People Count, Erika's Finale

Remember please – Erika says she is the 18th person, but Beato and Battler refute that and what happens? SHE DIES IN THE METAWORLD. The whole reason Erika died was that in reality it had been acknowledged that she had died – the reality that she was not actually alive in EP1-4 was being acknowledged.

It's really as simple as even if Erika joins, they are seventeen. Someone, I think it was Aura even posted it as a math equation, how simpler can it get?

Okay, Erika says '18th human' but the red truth has a bad history of term-definition, so that doesn't even count.

You can get round it by many ways. Human refers to personalites and not physical bodies, Erika can say 18th because she is witnessed by almost everyone as the 18th person and therefore 18th is a title and not an actual thing, you name it.

THUS, if dead people are counted towards the total then the people count should be 18 at least as Kinzo in gold was revealed to be dead and it would be 19 actually because the dead Kuwadorian Beato NEVER left the island + all of those people which Kinzo fought like 50 years ago would be included (the Japanese and Italians), but we do NOT include dead people otherwise we have massive problems with this. ERIKA IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL. Shannon and Kanon must be 2 SEPARATE PEOPLE for this to work to bring the total up to 17.

This isn't conclusive either. They are reffering to the total amount of people in the island generally, goes without saying, at the beginning of the game(?) or perhaps the game's pieces or something.

Plus the red truth is Even if you join us there are 17. It means that it becomes 17 if Erika joins in, so it's 16 without Erika. What is there not to get?

5) The Master Keys

EP3, EP8 - it is said in red that There are five master keys, one for each of the five servants.

It had been acknowledged in red that there are 5 servants, so surely S & K must be different then because the servants are counted as 2 different people. They EACH have 1 master key, the red here implies that Kanon and Shannon are carrying 2 DIFFERENT keys and so are 2 different entities (to bring the servant count up to 5).

True, but they are two different mental entities, two different characters, if you like. Kanon is a servant. Shannon is another servant. They are the same person, but two different characters. The holly trinity is a good example of this. Three gods in one, or one god in three?

At any rate, it is generally accepted in the context of Umineko that personalities can be counted as different people as long as we are not reffering to their 'physical existence'. Let me give the first twilight of EP3 as an example, since this has been brought up countless times about it. You can't say Six dead bodies were found., but you can say Six dead people were found, people here reffering to the personalities. The same can be said for the master keys.

6) EP3 - Chained Rooms, 1st Twilight

In EP4, in the tea party, this is taken a step further, Beatrice said in reply to closed room chain: All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants. This must mean that the parents when they went into the Kanon’s and Shannon’s respective rooms, THEY FOUND ACTUAL BODIES OF BOTH.

They found two bodies of both as far as they were concerned.

Plus, I know this will sound kind of ridiculous, but anyway, if Kanon and Shanon are one body but two different personalities, can't we say the same thing goes for their possesions? Or to be specific, their clothes? For example, we have Kanon's uniform and Shannon's uniform, and it's more stable than calling them different people to say that Kanon's pocket is different than Shannon's pocket. You're just twisting this too much to suit your theory.

7) – Shannon & Kanon are acknowledged BY THE RED as 2 separate people, time and time again:

a) For example, 6 PEOPLE: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Godha and Kumasawa are dead, it's not so much the dead bit here (because you could say oh Shannon and Kanon are dead but Yasu isn't), but the fact that Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE to bring the total up to 6 people. Otherwise, if they were the same person (which is what Yasu counts for just 1 person) then it should be counted as 5 people.

Except Ruykishi spends pages, and pages, and hours of our lives saying "Oh, in Umineko, people = personalities". Regardless of wether that logic is acceptable or not, this is how things work in Umineko. Just make peace with it.

c) And in EP4, it was said that Among the five people in Kyrie's group, Kanon was the first to die. In short, he was the 9th victim. People count bit which is interesting here. It suggests that Shannon and Kanon are counted as 2 different people.

Well that's not any different in the Shkanon theory.

S & K ARE ALWAYS ACKNOWLEDGED BY THE RED INDIRECTLY/DIRECTLY TO BE 2 DIFFERENT PEOPLE. This is shown in EP2, 3 and 4.

Oh! Beatrice can cheat with the red?

8) EP1 Paradox, Shannon and Kanon are next to each other in the Shed.

a) Regarding the unidentified corpses, all of their identities are guaranteed. What does this mean exactly? Well, it obviously means that the corpse that was apparently Shannon’s in the shed was definitely Shannon’s. Why is this ignored?

b) There were no unidentified corpses, and all the survivors have alibis in reference to Natsuhi’s ‘suicide’, let’s ignore the 2nd part. The fact that existence of unidentified corpses has been denied means Shannon cannot have substituted a body which is not from the 18 people. At the same time, No body double tricks exist was also said, so we know that it can’t even be one of the 18.

Because rather than a fake body, there was no body at all.

And it's obvious Hideyoshi is lying to George.

9) Another point about the Shkanon theory, why must Kanon not leaving a corpse behind mean Shannon = Kanon? There are 2 points I want to raise with this:
a) Kanon’s corpse is said to be hidden, but in EVERY episode except EP2 we are provided with some sort of explanation for WHERE IT IS, but why then are these explanations ignored? There exists no evidence to say he couldn’t be in an actual location…in EP1, it is clear he is in the room where Nanjo treated him, yes we don’t see him, but we are provided with an explanation for where he is, in EP3 he is dead in the church, in EP4 he is dead in the well, the existence of which has been alluded to in EP7, and EP8. Yes I admit he may not really be in those locations. BUT ONLY IN EPISODE 2 are we provided with an instance where it is unclear where Kanon had disappeared off to.

Pity that narrations and witnesses count little more than shit in Umineko. Plus it's not necessary for him to 'disappear' unless Yasu-Shannon actually dies.

b) Kanon’s corpse can be HIDDEN (why is this immediately seen as an unsatisfactory solution?). There exist COUNTLESS places to hide Kanon’s corpse, where NOBODY except a select few would know: 1) Below the Chapel, i.e. where the gold is hidden, 2) Kuwadorian Mansion, 3) The passage to Kuwadorian alluded to in EP4 – The Dungeon (remember?), 4) Secret Passage where Beatrice, Battler and Eva are escaping in EP8, 5) Remember at the end of EP8, there was the bit where Beatrice and Battler were diving together, Kanon’s corpse could be here, 6) Ocean (brilliant place to hide corpse).

So why is it that Knox's 8th about clues has to apply everytime it can be used to doubt the 'official solution' but it is insignficant whenever we can just make up whatever we want in order to disagree with it? Is there even one point in the story that suggests Kanon's body was hidden in any of those places?

10) Gender Confusion, no evidence

Knox's 8th prevents ShKanon from occurring in the 1st place, because there was no evidence to suggest that Yasu was sexually confused, there was never anything written in the story that her physical appearance, her genitalia primarily, were mangled.

Yasu's gender is not one of the mysteries you need to solve. Also their physical appearance is visible. Most people thought Kanon was a girl first time they saw him, but of course I'll agree that can't count as clues.

Thing is, Yasu's gender is not one of the mysteries a reader has to solve. You can just wonder once you realize Shannon is Kanon, like, 'so, is it fake boobs or the other way round?'. It's not impossible, (rather, it's likely) to get there.

The story had never given alluded to Yasu/Shannon/Kanon were physically disabled.

"Boohoo, I'm furniture, I can't love Geroge-sama because I'm furniture."
"Furniture isn't allowed to love."
"I'm grateful for your feelings, Milady, but I can't return them because I'm furniture."
"Furniture is inferior to humans because they can't love."

We could go on about this all day long.

Also regarding body doubles, don't clues have to be presented for this to work, was it ever shown that Shannon could pass off as Kanon or vice versa?

Apparently they could, since it happened. And I'll ask once more, why is it that you remember Knox's existence every time it isn't about making all sorts of shit up?

Conclusion

ShKanon is purely metaphorical. Yasu is completely metaphorical concept, used to explain the closeness of 2 people rather than Yasu herself being a person creating 2 different people.

Care to explain where you get that from? Or is it that Knox's 8th doesn't count now?

Here's my theory:

1) Kanon and Shannon are 2 different people to begin with
2) They are close and share their dreams/ideas with each other
3) One dies by accident or EP6 duel actually happens
4) The one who survives takes up the ideas and dreams of the other and thus is living one life but for 2 people
5) whether this includes murder or not (so whether they are the culprit or not) is not being contested FOR THE MOMENT, it may be limited

3)Knox's 8th... and also, why would they have to duel about George and Jessica? Where the both of them going to get married or something?

I don't know, but you call Shkanon just wrong, this is, in my opinion, more twisted and unrealistic.

Please comment, any criticism on my theory would be much appreciated. I will follow up with why I think Shannon and Kanon are not culprits and why Rosa is...

Look forward to hearing, but if this is KnownNoMore's Theory, I have to say it's the most ridiculous piece of shit I've ever had the misfortune to hear.