[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by qno2

Basically everywhere in the english Umineko "community" except here. No point in going against it, if others prefer an empty story about nothing and more than 80% of pure filler-material, let them have it.

Funny you say the "English" community. Do you mean to imply that the Japanese community is different, or are you just being unassuming?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese community would have a different opinion just based on them having a more accurate set of reds.

Originally Posted by qno2

1st theory (that he doesn't support himself): Fake-death drug? Wasn't there something about drugs and all, scientific stuff and all... one of the Knox's.
Knox's 4th. It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be USED!!
And it's mighty nice that Nanjo just left him conveniently alive because he's not a killer, it's like the meta-world has influence over him. Like, this theory is trying to go for realistic behaviour and such, right?

For the fake death drugs he refers to Erika mentioning the possibility of insulin being used by the first twilight "victims" in EP6, and how she even says it'd get around Knox's forth. 'Course he uses this as license to invoke fake death drugs... like 2 or 3 times per game. His term 'fake death drug' is really an awful word choice. Apparently he only means common sedatives.

The Nanjo thing stems from his interpretation of Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not killers, spoken in EP4 about the 6th-8th twilights in EP1. He considers it a "general statement" so it applies across all games. So basically it's more a matter of it fitting Nanjo's condition of not being a killer than to fitting Kanon's condition of still being alive.

But yeah, it's still pretty awful. And you're spot on about his second theory. It's even worse.

Originally Posted by qno2

So either we didn't see the "original bottle"-stories or... well. Ryukishi, it happens to the best of us.

Unless it was actually known for about a week that Ange is going to be sick and Yasu just changed it to "suddenly, on this day, she got sick" to add credibility to the story. Why?
...
Why do you ask? It's When they Cry. Since the bottles are more of an emotional ventil for Yasu an addition like that seems pointless. And probably is.

Was it said somewhere in EP4 or EP8 (therefore, outside the catbox) when Ange got sick? I thought that it said the same as EP1, so on a very short notice, but I might be wrong.

Here's what I have to say about it:

Logistical reasons to believe pre-incident authorship:
1) Bribing the police should be pretty difficult.

Thematic reasons to believe pre-incident authorship:
1) Eva, who survives in the real world, dies in both of the bottle-stories.
2) Beatrice is supposed to be dead by all magical accounts.

Logistical reasons to believe post-incident authorship:
1) Battler's return was predicted.
2) Ange's absence was predicted.
3) The typhoon was predicted.
4) An accident was predicted. (Well, this just means that either the author is the actual culprit, or it was written after the tragedy)

Thematic reasons to believe post-incident authorship:
1) The way I see it, this situation is kind of like a closed room, except it's bound by points in time rather than physical windows and doors. So I see debating whether these logistical conditions allow the author enough time to write... as similar to debating how long the chain is on a closed room and whether it allows someone to lock it or unlock it from the outside. But knowing how Beatrice rolls, the answer has nothing to do with the chain and everything to do with the witnesses: In this case, it's that random fisherman that found the one bottle and the police that released the other.

So yeah, I believe in post-incident authorship. A lot of people here do, though not everyone.

Originally Posted by qno2

But until this red was said, they could've been alive the whole time, it might've been a light hearted story about a fake-murder-game at the start. The red retroactively (!), similar to the first logic-error-battle in EP6, forces a decision.

Puts the red for "Because of you, Ushiromiya Battler, people die" in a whole new light; especially if you consider that 1986 would've happened anyway, if we choose to believe in Lions world, so the blame for the "actual" (... as actual as it gets) event can't be with him, he's neither there nor the cataclyst for anything.

Because he demanded this kind of red, they actually die - he turned the gameboards into massacres. Instead of believing.

It also works very similarly to "Paranoid Battler" theory. Everything is his fault because he didn't believe in the witch. Which, by the way, thematically matches the EP1 Tea party to a tee.

I wonder if these two ideas can be grafted together.

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

And I mean exactly that first twilight. A death drug? Makeup? Seriously? I mean, okay man, you may not like Shkanon, but try to live with it. I won't say anything as arrogant as 'it totally violates Knox', just that I fell from my chair when I watched it.

EP5? Yeah, good times.

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

No, but seriously, I'm convinced that even if you showed a red statement by Ryukishi himself verifying Shkanon, that guy would still manage to find a way round it. Ryukishi is part of the Illuminati or something...

Well, he claims that Ryukishi lies in interviews, so yeah, I don't think what you are saying here is the slightest exaggeration.

Originally Posted by Kealym

...really? I know KnownoMore has a fair amount of people who are wowed by at the least, his thoroughness, and like the theory, but ... did these people just NOT read the same Dawn that we did..?

They read the same Dawn that Erika did... when she slept through the love duel. It's yet another example of Erika parodying them without them even realizing it.