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Old 2018-06-06, 08:45   Link #68
Klashikari
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv175
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Ah, I see. You think that if present SERN learnt about the time machine from future SERN, then even if the D-Mail is erased, then the present SERN will still retain the information they received from the now non-existent time-traveling person/information. I think this is impossible unless SERN have RS.
You don't need RS for result like that.
In the case of a D-mail, Moeka finding the IBN is the evidence of that: the dmail couldn't possibly be send by herself because that was in a previous world line, but the fact remains that she already seized the IBN. And she doesn't have any RS.
In the case of a time travel, we got the badge issue.

It is exactly the same with SERN:
-If SERN used a D-mail or time leap, the fact they can't send a message to themselves in the future doesn't change the fact they received a D-mail about the time machine. As for the time leap, that information is already preserved for that person. Ergo, okarin's first d-mail is no longer needed.
-If SERN used real time travel, the situation is exactly the same as Suzuha: she explicitely explain in the VN that the WL she visits when traveling back in time isn't the same as hers. This is the reason why time traveler cannot meet themselves as TT as well. We fall in the same issue as the lab mem badge: even if the past changes, as long the situation can be replicated with other means, then it will happen. Therefore, as long they know they got that information from the future, it will not prevent them to send it again, meaning the original source of that information is no longer relevant (think about Recursive Mother Goose and you will understand what I meant about that).
Quote:
My view is, present SERN checked the Echelon and found the first D-Mail now (year 2010) based on the tip from future SERN - and no other source - until a certain time in the future when SERN would've found it out regardless. As long as this condition remains the same, then no amount of time traveling can alter the dystopian future. But as soon as this condition is not met, then the world line shifts, thus the present SERN cannot maintain your proposed loop.
When you interact with the past, you immediately affect how the WL respond to everything done that way. It is the same regardless if it is the alpha world line or the beta world line. With your logic of having SERN -obliged- to tip themselves, and thus, being unable to do that would undo that part of history, you cornered yourself with the time line logic, which in turn brings another issue: how did SERN manage to change the time (and then world line) from beta to alpha without any future interaction for the very first iteration? There ought to be a "time line" where SERN discovered the time machine without any future intervention. But this goes in contradiction with your assumption that they need that tip to work on everything.

Again, I don't see why SERN cannot simply find the D-mail in 2010 like usual after a normal procedure check and start their plan from there. I don't see any implication from the VN or original series where SERN tipped themselves, especially they could have done in a much more direct way if it is what they did. Instead of the tip, they could simply indicate clearly how to complete the theory instead.

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In fact, if by doing your proposed loop they can achieve eternal dystopia through time then why the hell wouldn't SERN have done this already. Simple answer is, they can't.
It isn't like they can't, it is more like they didn't try it. As stupid as it sound, I wouldn't be surprise if they don't want to interact in that part of history to avoid any paradox. The whole issue with real time travel is that if you affect the past that would interact with the current present and future, you are at risk of screwing stuff. As far as logic goes in such scenario, SERN probably only tinkered the time continuum any part of history after they finished the time machine.
Suzuha explicitely said they dominated the world with the time machine, which means they actively used it to take control of the world. But they didn't send anyone to safeguard the origin of the time machine, or else we would have counter agent a la terminator in 2010. Simply speaking, SERN was either too arrogant thinking no one else had the time machine tech, or didn't want to risk anything about time paradox.
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In the first place, the fact that SERN made public, and formed a cult regarding the involvement of Kurisu in the development of time machine is already very fishy. In any case, as I said before, even if present SERN already has the theory they still owe all that to the fact that they found that first D-Mail, and thus the FG labmen, and thus Kurisu.
I don't ever think it was a cult or anything. If anything, Suzuha is specialized in infiltration and actual combats, so it isn't surprising if she could get information from actual SERN employee and stuff like that.
Furthermore, it is very likely Okarin who explained how SERN got the time machine since he was captured in the first place. So it isn't like SERN has to make it public.

So everything point out that SERN doesn't have the complete time travel theory in 2010. Especially when other material such as distant valhalla prove th FG members had to work with SERN to complete the machine.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2018-06-06 at 09:02.
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