[Renall]

Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard

First of all, I'll skip that you rudely disregard my point of view completely and with a touch of sarcasm, and I respond:

I can't argue that Umineko's reply was clear, but I can guarantee it did exist. It was purposely left vague, so that the readers who didn't bother to think, or weren't yet at the truth, wouldn't be able to see it, but would be given a push towards it. If you think there was no answer, then tell me please, what was EP7?

That sounds like so much patronizing to me, for an individual who can't actually claim to know what the answer is to talk down to others and assure them that the answer exists. You don't know that. You're operating off the same information the rest of us have, all of which originates from the author. And the author has not been the most consistent.

Requiem is not an answer. It's one part characterization and one part some solutions to certain mysteries in ep1-4. Note, not all of them: Will never touches on the end of ep3 or any of ep4, and Ryukishi had to explain part of ep2 in an interview. For all its harping on motive, it doesn't actually provide one. If you believe ep7 provides anywhere near sufficient understanding of motive for any individual to commit mass murder (nevermind it muddies the waters with two competing theories), I question what you would not consider suitable justification for such a crime.

Ryukishi can claim as much as he likes that ep7 was "the end of the mystery." He's flat wrong, except in the sense that he means the "mystery fictions." There are mysteries in Umineko that remain, even if they are not captial-M "Mysteries."

Um...No, it doesn't mean that. I don't think the morale to be derived from Umineko is that immoral people are to be admired, neither do I consider anyone of Umineko's characters villainous (excluding Bern, Erika e.t.c.). Of course, opinions on that may vary, that's just my own view. Second of all, since the answer was given in EP7, there was no point in looking for them in EP8. The goats devouring the Golden Land weren't there for the purpose of mocking the readers, rather than the people of the future WITHIN the story that desired a tragedy in the island so badly. However, I see how in some cases Ryukishi07 may put them in parallel with existing theories and opinions, though not once did I perceive it as mockery to all of us who have been faithful to the series until the end.

Again with your patronizing attitude. You define by exclusion, considering yourself part of the "faithful" and backhandedly suggesting that other people just "didn't think" or "didn't get it." That attitude makes your opinions suspect, as it makes them appear to have no actual content.

You might not consider the individuals to be villainous because the author has asked you to accept the paradigm that "good guys" do good things and that because BATTLER et al are the good guys in opposition to the goats, to Bern, to Featherine, etc., that their position must be morally correct. Whether or not you actually concluded that aside, it isn't the case. That isn't to say Bern is right. It's just that everyone is wrong. But while Bern is, to some extent, an opportunistic sadist, she at least is not of the inclination to accept a murderer and pardon their crimes. BATTLER is. There is simply no way around this unless he has some even more critical unselfish motive, none of which is presented.

Ryukishi insulted by exclusion the existence of points of view which would support the notion that finding or revealing the truth is a good idea for unselfish or proper reasons. There is no fine line between the selfish forces of concealment and ravenous irresponsible theories. It's anti-academic, anti-intellectual, and anti-justice. And it revels in this. Cynically, I'd say it does this for the sole purpose of stirring argument, exactly like the Shkanon teasing, which existed only for that very reason.

What are you talking about? Exactly, who got away with their crimes and how?

That's precisely what we don't know. If it was an accident, no one involved deserves to be viewed with suspicion. If it was a murder, then someone among the dead (or "dead") is guilty and their crime should be brought to light. As it is, everyone who died at Rokkenjima is viewed as a "victim." If there was a crime involved, at least one person is being improperly viewed as such, and due to the suspicions, almost a dozen or more people are being improperly viewed as potential criminals.

This is wrong. Anyone who knows the truth - if anyone does - has the moral obligaton to correct this. And seeking to know the truth for these reasons is morally right.

And you did find out the end, did you not? EP8 was exactly it. I really cannot see what there is to complain about. The mystery you thought about so much was asnwered all in EP7. Personally, I never really expected an answer out of EP8.

No, actually. You have no idea what "mystery" I'm interested in or have thought about so much. I'm very interested in the behind-the-scenes puzzle which Ryukishi appeared to be hinting at for so many years. Not simply the whodunnit, but the process of approaching a world from fictionalized accounts attempting to reconstruct it. That process was initiated, developed, strongly suggested to be of grave importance... and abandoned.

And I'll always wonder why the hell he put so much effort into something he never actually wanted to do anything with.

For some reason, I took that comment as offensive. Obviously, I cannot boast that I have found the truth without having done so, neither can I say I can really understand absolutely everything about Umineko. In fact I did reason it out close to the end of EP5, and had my answer confirmed in EP7. I detect a trace mockery and doubt of the hard thinking it took to reach that answer, so pardon me for not feel like sharing that with you.

So you know nothing. Intellectual cowardice is something that does not sit well with me. I admit that I was being sarcastic, but your point was ludicrous enough to merit the sarcasm. You very much implied that you do know the answer. As I happen to know that there is almost zero chance that you actually do (you are not, to my knowledge, Ryukishi, nor have you claimed to have any intimate and special contact with him), as is true of any of us, I am confident that such an implication is a lie.

Hiding behind the notion that I have somehow offended you to the point that you don't want to share with me actually underscores the moral childishness of Umineko itself in deciding that truth ought be hidden: You're apparently annoyed at me enough that, assuming you did know The Answer to Umineko, you'd refuse to tell anyone just so I wouldn't know it. The work concludes along similar things: BATTLER is selfish, Ange is selfish, and that selfishness is, to them, more important than justice or truth.

Of course I can't argue Umineko was perfect in its entirety. There are imperfections, though I did not bother myself with such technical matters. As for plot holes, I do not remember encoutering those, care to name a few?

AuraTwilight has a list somewhere and no doubt will be right along with it at some point in the near future. It's more plot holes/loose ends than strictly flaws in the narrative, but that's not to say there are none.