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Old 2011-03-01, 08:23   Link #22101
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And I still think you are ignoring an important factor here.
There is more than one character in search of truth. Battler, Ange, Featherine, the Witch Hunters, Bernkastel, Erika, they all search for the truth and they all have different approaches.

-Battler completely changes side in the end
-Ange admits she was wrong in searching the truth
-Featherine isn't a completely positive character
-the witch hunters are depicted as idiots
-Bernkastel is the antagonist of this story (she said it herself)
-Erika ... is Erika...

In the end there is absolutely no positive representation of those who search the truth.

Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
How is what Ange did in the trick end connected to gaining the truth?!
She decides to pass judgement because of the evidence she found, okay. We already disclosed that in the case of Amakusa it was probably even justified to kill him out of selfdefense. But the captain?! There was no sufficient prove that he has not been bought by her enemies therefore his innocence is more unlikely than his crime...that is the reason why Ange killed him.
She created the truth that Amakusa and Kawabata sold her over to be killed from evidence she found, but does that make it the truth?!
And who denies that? But why are you ignoring the fact that you reach this ending simply by choosing to state a completely harmless truth? As if "deny magic choose truth = becoming a paronoid killer".

Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I also wouldn't characterize Erika as the antagonist of Umineko, she is just the opposing force to Battler's approach.
Are you aware that "opposing force" is practically the literal etymological meaning of "antagonist"?

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
That's not what I was saying. It's almost like you haven't been reading. Magic can be the power of astronomical odds; it can be the power to be totally certain about something and never have to doubt; it can be the power to create ideas out of nothing or to have those ideas not be forgotten for all eternity.

It's the power to push pain onto another. It's the power to wash hatred away and turn monsters into pitiable persons. It's the power to see anything that you couldn't see before; sometimes that is a delusion or an embellishment, but sometimes it can be as divine revelation.

This is all shit said in the novel practically word for word.
I'm sorry but I'll have to reiterate that you are unilaterally concluding that everything supernatural is magic. I'll say it once again:"magic" has a precise meaning in Umineko, in order to avoid confusion you shouldn't use it in its widespread meaning.

Provide a proof of single instance where it was stated that "red truth" = "magic", then we can talk.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
In the spirit of abusing quantum physics terminology, are you familiar with the idea of "multiple histories"? For a closed cat box, you can either to take the view that there was always only one history hidden inside, or you can say that all possible histories existed inside the box until the moment you opened it and observed one. Are you really sure that the former is how Umineko's universe works, from a meta-world perspective?

Of course you want to punish the culprit, but which history are you looking at to make the accusation? Isn't that like taking a room full of equally suspicious people and arbitrarily throwing one in jail because you needed a conviction?
That's why quantum physics theories fail if applied to everyday life situations. Even Umineko is clear in saying that once you open the catbox there is only one truth remaining. Even EP8 doesn't deny the existence of a "single truth", not even Battler denies it. A "single truth" exists, that was made clear. I've seen other works where they actually state that no truth exists, but it isn't the case with Umineko.

In Umineko the existence of a single truth is acknowledged, what isn't acknowledged is the importance of that single truth.

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