[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Dude, I know what you're saying, but Hitler was a hardcore Catholic. The Nazi belt buckles even say "Gott Min Uns" (God With Us) on it.

No actually Hitler hated Christianity.

From Mein Kampf:

"The root of the whole evil lay, particularly in Schoenerer's opinion, in the fact that the directing body of the Catholic Church was not in Germany, and that for this very reason alone it was hostile to the interests

From Table Talk:

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity!"

"Christianity is a prototype of Bolshevism: the mobilisation by the Jew of the masses of slaves with the object of undermining society. Thus one understands that the healthy elements of the Roman world were proof against this doctrine."

The only God Hitler obeyed was the State.
To him and all of the dictators of history, the STATE IS GOD.

And that was my point.
If you remove Theistic belief from society what is to stop powerful individuals from replacing Supernatural-Theistic belief with Rationalistic-cultism.

We already have a societal model that is superior to either atheistic-Statism or Theocracy, that model is a Secular-Republic.
It is not the right nor duty of the state to impose or restrict beliefs.
It is the duty of the state to protect ALL belief systems under its jurisdiction.

As my favorite founding father once said: "I care not whether my neighbor has one god or 10,000."

That is why I poked fun at the idea that expunging religion from society is noble.
It's not, it's just as prejudice as the theists calling for the condemnation of homosexuals or others "undesireables" in society.
Two wrongs don't a make a right.

Vexx wrote:

Enlightenment moment - that counterargument is an instant lose in debate.
Its not binary ... evil does not vanish with or without religion - however, religion has definitely been used to retard, restrict, or control people throughout history. You've simply listed 'power grabbers' who would have used whatever tools were handy to achieve their dominance.

Really, its *institutionalized* religion that is crumbling ... at least that type that has a 'director' or 'edict' hierarchy.

Not when it's relevent, it's not.

Both Theocracy and Atheistic-Statism have proven themselves to be evil in a secular sense of the word.

It is clear that Religious governments have killed millions over the last 2000 years in the name of whatever god or gods they were claiming divine right of rulership to do so.

However, by the same token Statist governments killed more than 150,000,000 people over the last century alone.

On the other hand, secular governments have killed a little more than 10,000,000 since the end of the 18th Century.

Clearly all governments kill, thus the question of which one is more noble comes down to who kills the least and why.