[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Fate lost one battle, her main one with Signum. Although the ones she had were chopped a bit. But if it were me, I'd chop NanoFate fluff scenes to get her fight and relationship with Signum better developed. If you think Fate had the right amount of time total, would you feel that chopping some NanoFate to develop the Fate/Signum relationship be something worthy of doing? Because that friend/rival relationship is really interesting to me.

I would have liked to see her fight a bit more. All of those upgrades and never really put to use. Nevertheless, I do feel the movie had a pretty good blend of elements. To me it felt like Nanoha fought all of the main battles, Fate was trying to live a normal life and deal with the ghost of her mother, while Hayate was in between the conflict of it all. I'd gladly give the NanoFate reunion scene up for the BDH moment, though. I'm not as hard to please as you think, but unlike most of you here, I enjoyed the movie a lot as it was. Some changes may make it better, but I don't feel it's so crucial as some make it out to be.

But let's be clear: out of all the characters, Fate lost the least in the transition to the movie.

Say hello to Reinforce who GAINED from the transition. Also, I don't think Nanoha or Hayate lost any more than Fate, either. Or Vita. So that makes a handful of characters who were treated the best.

Because it is not a matter of screentime to me. Hell, if they managed to cover Chrono and Lindy and resolve their angst towards the book, and also Fate's relationship with her brother and mother, I wouldn't care if they had NanoFate scenes as well. But if we need to cut things, then I start looking at what is not vital.

Did they have Chrono/Amy resolving their angst about the book in the series? If not, I do understand that you think they're relevant to the plot, but it's asking a lot for a series to develop that aspect on two characters who barely appear in the first place, especially if it didn't even happen in the series. That aside, did Fate even have anything going on with Chrono in the series? I remember they had one or two brief chats...But if these things were not really present in the series, why are they so important in the movie?

But I am willing to take the axe to any of them, to give what is *needed*. Needs outweigh wants to me, plain and simple.

I really do think you put too much stock in "need." A lot of the most successful anime are without plot. Instead, they opt to sell based on character dynamics alone. That's not to say a series like Nanoha should be plotless, but often times character interaction is more important than the plot. As long as the plot doesn't completely fall flat on its face, then it's good enough.

And going into the future, Fate and NanoFate will continue to get scenes and development. This was about the only time for Lindy, Chrono, Hayate, and the Wolks. I'm pretty much betting that none of them will receive *any* real development in the future. They are all side characters who won't get jack shit from here on.

I hope they do, but while future installments have proved this, nothing is a guarantee. I doubt they're going to scrap the Wolks or Hayate in the Reflection movie, at least. I doubt Fate's going to leave home if the movie takes place only a fw years later, so Chrono and Lindy could very well stick around as well. We'll have to wait and see. If you must blame anything, blame the ten year time gap between A's and StrikerS. And the masses of new characters that followed. I hope Reflection does not follow the same trend.

And we see why. I mean, I think you'd argue that Fate's cold demeanor in the first movie and series made sense. You know why. Thus we also know why Chrono is "stone cold"; he's the Fate of A's. Yet, Fate is still more important? We go for the girl who has emotional issues from childhood that turned her into someone who carefully guarded her emotions... but screw the guy who turned out similarly? True, the situations aren't exactly similar, but it obviously affected Chrono enough to have him bury his feelings and emotions, and you don't want him to ever deal with that?

Point taken. Yet as far as him and Fate go, I feel it is too early for them to be all brotherly and sisterly to each other. So maybe he should resolve his issues elsewhere first.

So I suppose writing it out what matter much to you. You probably aren't reading any of my Fate fics, either, since the written form doesn't do anything for you? Obviously, I can't animate it, so you've set this up as something that can never be resolved for you. You aren't open to the idea, because it would have to be animated, but because it never can, you can't be open to it. Talk about circular.

I'm no director, or script writer. What I see on paper (or this subforum) doesn't make me instantly think of what a good idea it may be. Plenty of good ideas have fallen flat when put to the test. What I do know is that the scene being replaced is my favorite scene of all time. I'd sacrifice anything, before it. Maybe your idea could work out, but I can't say it would be of equal significance. To me, at least.

And yet, she doesn't. If she had, Jail wouldn't have been able to hit hard at her. And in the next movie, Fate will have another issue with Precia. And the one beyond that, and the one beyond that... because I guess Tsuzuki can't think of any other way to give her issues, other than her mother. Is that what you want?

I'll quote Dr.Casey on this, since I feel he put it rather eloquently.

Originally Posted by Dr.Casey

Right, and this is actually one of the reasons I enjoyed StrikerS so much - the characterization felt more nuanced, without the occasional rigid, artificial character moments that sprinkled the first two series. It's always been a pet peeve of mine when healing from emotional damage in anime is completely linear, where once a character has a moment of coming to peace with their past and their situation, that's it - the issue can never be allowed to hurt them again to any degree, ever. (On the same note, it's also irritating sometimes whenever anime fans complain about character development being undermined by characters having even brief moments of regression, as though healing and maturing is a 100% straight line.)

Of course, there might be a detail or two of these scenes that I'm forgetting. If Fate comes across as being less at peace with her past and her relationship with her mother in StrikerS than she was in A's, that would be kind of a screwy regression. Emotional trauma should generally be more healed up when you're a decade removed from said trauma rather than just six months. I don't remember the message of the dream lotus scene in A's, though, as being "Fate has completely moved on and will never feel sadness over her past again." It was a difficult decision that required a lot of strength on her part and contributed to the healing process, but I don't remember any implications that her issues were completely put to rest. And considering how deeply traumatic Fate's childhood was, it would feel very unrealistic and artificial to me for there to be no long-lasting effects. I think StrikerS struck a nice balance between conveying the damage caused by her middle childhood, and presenting her as a stronger, experienced, more mature woman.

tl;dr No one fully gets over traumatic issues, but StrikerS showed that she is not the same person we saw in A's, and especially the first season. She's matured, confident, and not afraid of intimate (I'm not saying of the sexual kind) relations.

So, Fate has exchanged one dependency for another? Isn't that not healthy? I think, then, the greatest development for Fate's character, would be her ability to exist on her own, not dependent upon anyone.

No, it's not healthy, but I love it about her. The lengths shes willing to go to please that special someone is part of what I find so endearing about her. Of course, unlike Precia, Nanoha doesn't expect anything from her. So instead, Nanoha aids in the emotional support she so desperately needed. I posted this on Triple_R's wall, but I'll post it here to give a better example to how I see their relationship.

_________
Nanoha has always initiated handholding before with Fate feeling reassured. At the beginning of the movie, Fate held out her hand and waited for Nanoha to take it- probably thinking she’d just shake or something like that- but Nanoha grabs on with both hands and gets all intimate because that's Nanoha for you. Fate was always afraid of initiating intimate affection. That’s why Nanoha looks so surprised when Fate does finally grab her hand.

While Fate was trapped in that dream world and she realized there Nanoha and her family need her- she was told by her big sister even. It was something she was unsure of before- “I was useless in the end”- but trapped with this fake family, she realizes no, my real one needs me more, I need to get out of here and help Nanoha. And she does! She saves Nanoha, just like she promised she would in the last movie- “next time, I’ll save you”. And she’s finally able to move on from that place where she feels useless and trapped with the ghost of her mother. She has confidence in herself, she can move forward, and now she’s comfortable taking Nanoha’s hand, in comforting Nanoha, instead of always waiting for Nanoha to take her hand, instead of feeling unworthy of her.



The transition of events in moving form~

We get that it is good for Fate and the NanoFate relationship. We really do. I don't know how many times I have to say this for it to get through to you. But you're being subjective about it, which is understandable, while we are trying to be objective.

Well, you're being subjective too, albeit in a different way. You think making the plot stronger will instantly make the movie a better watch the the majority of viewers. While I strongly disagree, stating that it has a perfect blend between action, plot, and character exposition. As perfect as any Nanoha title will ever get, anyways.

Essentially, unless the movie pleases you 100%, then it is a terribad movie? But even with those cuts, I still think you'd find their relationship to be a close one.

No? But if we're simply making cuts that I feel will lessen my enjoyment of the movie, why should I accept them? And no, I'm not just in it for NanoFate but I don't feel there is enough of it in a first place to make that your target.

And realize that none of the people you are arguing with, think it is a "bad" movie. Well, maybe Nanya, heh. I'm one of the lower ones, and I think it is just average (even though a 5 should be average, thus I went with 6). So you're upset with people who still rated it highly, and thus still found good within in.

It's not really about quality. I just have increasingly different opinions from the majority of people on this subforum. We could both think the movie was great, yet it would be for different reasons. Craxuan is an example of that...Since all of the negatives he gave the film were aspects of the movie I enjoyed. Yet he too enjoyed the movie.

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

Fate wasn't important to the Book of Darkness Incident. She honestly had as much of a role to play as Yuuno; for the both of them, their only stake in the conflict was that it had hurt Nanoha and threatened her planet.

Main character ---> Planet threatened ---> Profit?
Really though, Fate had a ton of screen time in the series, it's not like they're going to cut her to side character status simply because she's not directly linked to the incident. And believe it or not, Fate still had the most emotional baggage in the entire cast, even after the first season. That's how much worse her circumstances were compared to everyone else. And it's what we'll never agree on since for me: Character exposition > Plot.
I feel like I'm talking into a black hole here.