[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Want doesn't matter, they still choose to fight the Minerva despite it wishing for no hostilities. They even attacked Cagalli, despite knowing who she was, because Yuna said so. That shows that they have no back bone and all of them deserves the fate they dug for themselves. The only crime is that Shinn didn't get a chance to kill the ones that later defected after attacking the Minerva and Cagalli.

Shows the importance of leadership, right? Yes, once Orb sided with EA, there was no turning back. Otherwise, they would then face hostalities from BOTH EA and Zaft. When you are in a situation like that, you'll find that even if you want stop the fight. You'll see there is nothing you can do, and even if you do, there was no gurantee your fellow comrades would do the same. I'm sure this was in the mind of every Orb soldier there.

Why did the ones who did defect and joined with the Arcangel and Cagali have to die? They aren't really the ones who attacked Cagali. They were the ones who hated the situation and actually took action.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Who is Kira to decide that? He has NO SWAY in Orb and last time I checked he kidnapped Cagalli. Had Cagalli remained in Orb and was married than Orb wouldn't have been there at all. The whole reason Orb was there was because of Kira's selfish actions. Sure Yuna was a creep but he shouldn't blame Orb for falling in a state that he allowed just because he didn't want to see Cagalli forced into a marriage, which she agreed to for the good of Orb, and because she was crying.

No, things wouldn't have changed if Cagalli stayed. That's why Kira and Arcangel acted and go her out of there, before the marriage actually happened and be harder to undo. Cagalli, from the stress of leading a nation, was tired and easily taken advantage of by the Serans. If Kira hadn't come and got her, she would have been reduced to figurehead, being a puppet for Yuna. Once surronded by friends and learning about the world's current affairs with them through news channels and information networking was she able to get back her vigor.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

No they weren't. That's why Kira attacked everyone in the immediate area without a second thought when Orb told Cagalli to go away.

Kira fought both sides to reduce the numeber of fighters causing both sides to retreat. The result wasn't what anyone wanted even Kira. Milly attested to that when talking with Atrun the next episode. However, with the current situation, not much else could have been done.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

No, he literally said Stop Fighting in the Anime more than once. The games just enhanced that because really that's what Kira's actions in Destiny were, Stop Fighting! His only Stop Fighting action that was justified was the unwarranted attack on Berlin. Even than Kira initially attacked everyone and didn't team up with Shinn right away.

Twice I believe IN THE PREVIOUS SEASON. One when trying to get both Zaft and EA out of range of the Cyclops system in Alaska. The second suring the final battle after Genisis first fired. He has never said it once in Destiny. You like to bring up showing hard evidence for facts. Go though Destiny and find one occurence in which he said that. That'll bring this topic to a close. Though I doubt you'll find it.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

You are being too dense. Of course he knew, yet he gave her a ring and told her before he rejoined ZAFT that he didn't like it and he wasn't going to let it stand. Than Cagalli's wedding is suddenly rushed forward, when Athrun was gone, and he was never even told. Athrun had to find out about the wedding through other means. Considering that Cagalli and him were an item she had an obligation to tell him it wasn't going to work. Instead she decided that Athrun didn't deserve to know since he wouldn't approve and would talk her out of that stupidity because Cagalli, for some reason, was pushed into believing she was worthless and that things would be better for Orb if she married Yuna. Remember, Cagalli could have easily refused and Yuna pushed very hard to get her to commit fully.

First of, no need to attack someone. Second, she had no means to tell Athrun because he was away, and had no means to know where exactly he was. As you said, she was not in the right state of mind. She was constantly being pushed into a corner by Yuna.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Yeah, right. Kira approved of such a dumb plan because of Cagalli. Had he not kidnapped her that plan would never have been made and Cagalli wouldn't have been made to cry or dragged onto the battlefield again. After all, Cagalli was already shown to resist the pressures of Orb to intervene and as soon as she was gone Orb was taken over by Yuna. All because of Kira's short sightedness.

As I said before, nothing would have changed even if Cagali was there. Yuna was constantly pushing her towards his ideals and weakening her will. If Kira had not gotten her out of there when he did, Cagali would be in even worse shape.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

And you didn't explain a thing about him while I have explained many times on what Kira's intent was and his actions in the series have proven my point. Tell me, if you're so knowledgeable than what is his intent? No reason to hide behind "You don't understand" and than not elaborate.

Kira's intent was many things. One was to find the truth about the attack on Lacus by Zaft. Another was like everyone's else to quickly end the war. Of course, he, Murrue and the rest of the Arcangel crew had no idea where to start hence their actions and movements were very limited, mostly hiding and gathering information. Going to the Earth Alliance was big no. Zaft couldn't be trusted since the attack on Lacus. They couldn't end the war by themselves due to insufficient numbers. Another reason was limit the number of casualties in Orb from fighting Zaft. That's the whole reason Arcangel intervened in those two conflicts to stop the fighting. If not, limit the casualties and force both sides to retreat. Lastly, once Cagali had her vigor and resolve back, take her back to Orb. Those last two were pretty much laid out before them due to the state of affairs.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

And who are you to say that? It was working on Mars and Kira had no other solution than to maintain the status queue which has resulted in multiple bloody wars, multiple nukings, and people still hating each other even after Destiny due to their differences and jealousy as the Astray series has shown. Kira's way simply isn't any better. Yet instead of even considering it Kira was right on board with attacking the Leader of ZAFT and having him killed to shut him up.

You seem to be one of the Destiny plans supporters, so I am not going to go much into that. However, you said to Soaring Griffin "Who areyou to say a genetic determinism society is wrong?" Well, who are you to say that it's right. Just because it worked on Mars, doesn't mean it'll work on other planets/ colonies. Durandel was forcing his plan on everyone. Kira, Artrun and everyone from Arcangel, Eternal and Orb chose to stop him. It is as simple as that. Kira and the others advocated for everyone to be able to make a choice.

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

So Kira was not in the right since he subjected himself to the same methods as Durandal to bring about the future he wanted. The difference is Durandal isn't going to pretend he's somehow the supreme being of morality and knows that many people will die to bring change. While Kira just wants the fighting to stop and doesn't want anyone to die which is completely naive. Destiny Kira just regressed since by the end of SEED he had already come to terms that by fighting not everyone will listen to him and people will die yet in Destiny he's utterly shocked that people are angry that he butts in randomly and tries to get them to do what he desires. Hell, none of his arguments with Athrun were logical and were just forced so they could have the Kira vs Athrun dynamic again like at the start of SEED.

Did Kira use a doomsday weapon to wipe out everyone on the moon colony? I doubt only EA solders were killed in that blast. When has Kira acted shocked in Destiny? (Don't bring up the beam saber dodge from Shinn)In addition, Kira doesn't think of himself as the this "supreme being of morality". This is one of the biggest misconceptions I have come across.

Regarding the destiny plan, Yes, he knows what they are doing maybe selfish, he even asked Athrun and he replied basically probably so. However, this was a plan made to eliminate choice from life made by a man who wants to make a system play the role of God. All people would have is a feeling of mere existence. Plus, even with the goal of eliminating war, it would have not stopped conflicts because every now and then, rebellions would rise to end this way of life, because plenty of people would not want this.