[Shinji103]

Spoiler for Wilfriback:

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

That is just plain impossible, there was various spells set up by the Amakusas, Aqua and Kaori to keep away non magicians in the fight on the whole area. Even if Mikoto would have follow him she wouldn't have been able to see anything.

Still missing my point by just that much. I know that they had the spells up, but my biggest frustration is that she didn't go after Touma at all to try and help. Still, it wouldn't be the first time that gopod guys getting their butts whooped let in some help even from people they were trying to keep out just to get even a little more firepower. (Bleach is one case of this) I'm not saying I would expect some corny "forget the rules, we need help!" line, but it could have happened, as has happened before in other titles.

Wrong, Kaori and Tsuchimikado had enough protection to be safe from the Angel Fall spell which is enough powerful to cast down a real archangel and Index herself stated there are ways to be protected, her Walking Church was an example. A spell done by somone who is trying to be an archangel isn't on the same level.

I'm not talking about one, single specific scene here. I'm saying if there was any scene at all where Kaori or somebody would become a liability, Kamachi would do the "wasted pages" thing. Acqua mowed down everybody; they didn't exactly show a good usage of pages.

Not true at all:
1. Never knew about Sherry being a magician.
2. Mikoto only paid attention to Touma's memory revelation.
3. Found Touma on his way but never knew who was the enemy. She even asked him to tell her who.

1. You're taking this way too straight/literally. Mikoto still stumbled upon a magician and her "unusual" abilities.
2. Mikoto still knew that there was some force outside Academy City that was attacking Touma.
3. Same as 2. She knew there was some group outside AC aiming for Touma; it doesn't matter that she didn't find out exactly who, she knew they existed.

Person A usally buys ice cream with X flavor but the next day buys a ice cream with Y flavor, does that makes A out of character?

What does Touma not having anything to stop people from following him have to do with inconsistent characterization?
For the record though, the cases I'm pointing out are on a entirely different level from choosing a different ice cream flavor. They really don't compare at all.

Thats very different, Shiage has the experience of a Skill Out so he knows what to expect from a rampaging esper even more from Mugino after knowing what kind of character she has.

No offense to you but you're acting like Mikoto is some dumb little girl. She's not. Shiage used tactics to opvercome his lack of powers, but Mikoto also used tactics in conjunction with her abilities. The latter (powers+tactics) is far more potent because Mikoto is capable of doing any action Shiage can, with the added benefit of having powers to use.

Experience fighting students isn't the same to the experience adquired with pros who won't hesitate to kill.

And there's no way Touma had any prior experience fighting magicians, so he wasn't any better off than Mikoto would have be.

Both are the same age:
Stiyl has the mentality and determination to kill and its implied he did kill before various times.
Mikoto saw a clone being killed and went insane.

Erm, there are a few key factors that you're not pointing out there. She saw a a clone of her, who she befriended, get brutally killed by a psycho Esper. Take a good friend of Stiyl's, have him watch the friend get brutally murdered, and see what happens. Better yet, do it with Kaori; she would definitely go berserk.
That, and just because Mikoto was furious opver the brutal death of anyone, doesn't make her incompetent or unable to handle herself. As I pointed out, Accelerator is one of those broken bad guys that nobody could handle unless you have just the right ability. (Imagine Breaker)

You know you can win a fight without killing but it gives you less complicated schemes and leads to more effective forms to win a battle. Thats war.

Yet Touma keeps winning. And he's far fromt he first person who had conquered powerful enemies wihout killing. (not just limited to Toaru Index)

There is, Index told him about how to pass through Stiyl's trump card.

And if Mikoto teamed up with Touma, that knowledge would be available to her too. Touma wasn't any more capable of taking on certain enemies than Mikoto wihout Index's help.

What?
You mean the piece of Golem used as a decoy is an apt demonstration?
The golem was only a decoy what would have make difference between AIM Burst and Ellis when both has regeneration ability, she was able to stop the first because she GOT the help.
The golem just can keep regenerating once and once again until the boredom. What would have done Mikoto against it if she doesn't knows how to fight it and has no idea about a way to find and stop Sherry? Remember to stop an spell you must destroy the ritual location (which there isn't) or KILL the caster.

Erm, the golem that Sherry was directly controlling when she fought against Kuroko. How was that a decoy?
And decoy or not, she blew it away in one shot. Somehow I doubt that's not an apt deomnstration of power.
No offense, but you're ignoring (at least) one specific thing here; why are you assuming that Mikoto wouldn't go after Sherry directly? Touma had no problem getting directly at Sherry with Ellis active, thanks to cover fire from Anti-Skill or not (and I lean towards "not"; Anti-Skill was getting their butts whooped), which Mikoto could have done just as easily herself.
Why can't Mikoto shoot off electricity at Sherry after blowing up Ellis? It doesn't regenerate instantly. Or maybe she could shoot off a railgun and take Ellis down while simultaneoulsy incapacitating Sherry via a close shot, in one shot.

Originally Posted by yukirosuzuka

Didn't this argument die out yesterday? Why is it starting back up again?

Says who?

I enjoy a good debate every now and then. (provided neither side gets to insults )

Spoiler for giorno:

Originally Posted by giorno

No, but the most important thing here is to evacuate all 3 of them in the shortest time possible, not evacuate the two most defenseless regardless of time and then if there's still time the third one

What? That's EXACTLY what you do. It doesn't matter how much time you have; if there's a dangerous situation, you get the civilians out of the way ASAP, with priority on who needs help the most, in this case Index and Hyouka. (officially speaking from a Judgement point of view, Touma would be included as well, but Kuroko knew she couldn't teleport him)

Except Kuroko is STILL a first year middle school girl who we have already seen is not nearly as trained, disciplined and qualified as an anti-skill

So in a series full of kids where they're easily just as capable as adults, just like hundreds of other animes, Kuroko is the one single person who is an exception? This almost screams plot hole itself; plot hole or not beside, one would think that an important agency like Judgement would be better choosers about their members.

well, not exactly, the priority is evacuating ALL civilians in the shortest time possible, and sure, the most vulnerable ones should be evacuated first when possible

Of course you evacuate them all, but as you just agreed you start with the more vulerable ones first. That means one of the first two people out should be Hyouka instead of Mikoto.

which doesn't change the fact that Kuroko is not an anti-skill, she even let Touma decide who to evacuate first and just grabbed the two closest persons to her when Index and Kuroko started bitching and losing time over it...

Which is exactly why it's a plot hole, i.e. inconsistency; Kuroko has demonstrated time and again that she is a capable, well-knowledged member of Judgement. Deciding that a level 0 is more in danger than a level 5 who just blew away the terrorist's ability with ease doesn't take a rocket scientist.

heh, yes, but they're only street patrols, not an anti-terrorist unit. They do not have nearly as much training as the anti-skills.

Even street patrols, civilian neighborhood watch groups, whatever, know to get out the most vulnerable first in an evacuation.

the point is why the heck he didn't wait for Kuroko's return with Hyouka, to make sure she would be taken to safety before rushing into battle

that is a plot hole

Why didn't he wait? Because he's always going off to fight the bad guys. That's not inconsistent at that he went after the bad guy; he was already telling them that he would be the decoy and buy everybody time to get out befoe Kuroko had taken anybody out of the mall int he first place.
He told Hyouka to stay put, but like I've said several times around here, he has no means to make people stay put; Hyouka will go after him if she wants, as will Mikoto. He can't stop them.

uhm
you did

That was an example that I was talking about where Mikoto could go with Touma to face a big enemy. Note how I didn't say she chould have gone with him in that exact scene. I was speaking more generaly there. "Why should Mikoto ever listen to Touma and stay away from a fiht?" Obviously she took care of the grunts, although to be picky, thats not exactly glamorous screentime.
Admittedly is was inconsistent of me to go off an a tangent and speak generally when you were speaking specifically, and I apologize.

i never said Mikoto is weak. My point is that Frenda, a much more experience fighter than Mikoto, nearly killed her by using superior tactics, a result of her experience, despite the overwhelming difference in power.

This is another assumption you guys are makingl how do you know how much experience Mikoto has? How do you know Frenda is more experienced?
Either way, Frenda obviously couldn't overpower Mikoto through tactics, as she lost very thoroughly. Part of that was due to Mikoto using her powers strategically and creatively as opposed to "point and shoot."

Your point, which is what i was countering with this, was that Mikoto is very smart and can defeat magicians by using superior tactics. Except 9 out of 10 magicians are much more experienced than her, so if anything, it would be THEM who hold the tactical advantage over Mikoto. Especially in the case of people like Acqua, who pretty much spent all his life fighting

Again, I point out that you're making baseless assumptions about Mikoto's level of experience, no offense.
Besides which, Touma had zero experience fighting against magicians, same as Mikoto, but did just fine. And if Mikoto had fought bad guys with Touma, any knowledge he gained from index would have been available to him.
That said, I would fully expect Mikoto to try and keep Touma out of the battles at first (he is getting hospitalized nearly every arc, after all.... ), which would lead to some big defeats aginst the more powerful (read: broken ) magicians that she or Touma would both need specific knowledge to beat, barring Index being there for support anyway. But as I've said, such an event could lead to development of her character; she tries to help Touma, gets beaten to a pulp, realizes there are serious hardcore bad guys out there, and works to become stronger.

[quote]1) Shiage is a skill out
2) Shiage had good knowledge and understanding of Mugino's power. Without this, he never would have won against her[/'quote]1. Not very relevant; he's a level 0 in what is essentially a street gang. A gfar cry from the third most powerful level 5.
2. Except Mikoto beat Mugino too. With tactics and creative use of her powers. Knocked her out stone cold. Shiage having anything over Mikoto is irrelevant and pointless; Mikoto proved she's at least just as competent.

I never said she is weak. I'm saying she's not a tactical genius, like you claim she is, and she can't compete in that with people who are much more experienced than her

Mikoto's victories over Frenda and Mugino through tactics and creative power usage would like to have a word with you too.

yeah, and again, this was a result of her exceptional power and her creativity and adaptability with it, coupled with Mugino underestimating the shit out of her

Erm, what are you talking about? Mikoto didn't win through a show of power; she konked Mugino in the head with one of Frenda's dolls from her flank after distracting her with what was supposed to look like a full frontal assault. While Mugino was bragging, no less. A very creative and intelligent strategy using available supplies.

Yes. And it is also obvious that she has nowhere near as much experience with real battles as Touma, the majority of magicians and people of the dark side of AC have

And where are you getting any of this? I don't recall there being any census on combat experience for characters in the show. Of course the magicians have lots of experience, but I don't see where you're getting that Mikoto doesn't have the required experience, when we have clear evidence she does.

He had plenty of experience from fights against espers in the back alleys of AC, it wasn't his first time dealing with someone with a strange power

First, magic is almost literally worlds apart from Esper abilities; they're not really comparable, as people here are pointing out themselves. Having experience against Espers would give him no help against things like Divine Punishment.
Second, this still doesn't mean Mikoto lacks experience in any way.

He only won thanks to Index. And i'm not saying Mikoto couldn't win in Touma's situation, either. To begin with, Styil isn't someone who is above her league

Well, this we can obviously agree on.

No, not even close. Touma basically grew up fighting against espers and level 0 in the back alleys of AC. Mikoto grew up like a normal girl

Like biz said, utter phail. Not to mention, you don't have any basis for this; where is it said that Mikoto didn't have any experience in combat?
But consider this: if you're right and Mikoto really doesn't have much experience, that makes her victories over Kiyama, Frenda, and Mugino even more impressive; if she could do all that and use tactics and strategy that well with minimal experience, what could she do if she got more?
It's like Chad said about Ichigo in Bleach: "If he gained experience, he'd be frighteningly powerful." Note that you gain experience from simple training; you don't have to be staring down a gun barrel or at a hospital sentence to improve your experience.

she's a 14 year old girl who's just realized she's in love with a guy and is completely overwhelmed by the situation and by his words. Which carried a clear undertone of "don't get involved" with it

I still somewhat disagree with this undertone thing. Sure he didn't want her to get involved and specifically told her to go home, but he didn't have anything to force her away nor did he actually specifically put any effort into; and again, even if he did, Mikoto's not the type of character to just turn her back on someone limping to a battle because they asked her to, much less when she's in love with him and knows it.

Kuroko probably never received training for such situations, and in her eyes are 4 civilians she has to take to safety, not Touma, one level 5 and two defenseless civilians. Or more precisely, there are 4 civilians whom she must evacuate in the shortest time possible, of which one whom she can't teleport, and the two closest to her who are arguing about who should be teleported first and losing time

Forced? Yes. Inconsistent? heck no

Again, Judgement's duties specifically involve evacuation/protection of civilians. If there's one thing they would be trained on, it would be this. And even assuming they weren't trained at all, which would be utterly irreponsible for a group charged with public safety, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the weaker people go first. "The women, children, and elderly first." Ages-old saying in evacuation and protection. Because they're the weakest/most helpless. (obviously speaking traditionally about the women and children, of course ) But the point stands.
It's inconsistent for any group dedicated to public protections, as I stated.

Except given the circumstances and the fact that Kuroko is not an anti-skill, knows Mikoto's character all too well, and in her eyes are 3(4 actually) "defenceless" civilians to be evacuated

It doesn't matter if she's Anit-Skill or not; she's Judgement. A public saftey organization, just like the police.

Because she's overwhelmed by the situation and because he's made clear that it was HIS battle

but mostly because she was overwhelmed by the situation. Which is entirely understandable, considering she's only 14

Honestly, there was nothing to be that overwhelmed about. She confronted him about his amnesia and he explained to her why he fights even though he can't remember his life. He didn't drop some bombshell that utterly changed her life beyond a semblance of its former shape.
Unless you're saying that Touma made one of those terribly corny speech moments that even I find hard to bear. (and I'm in the Touma's "preaching" is no big deal crowd )
Touma is two years older than her; that's not much extra leeway for emotional stability.

Wrong. There are 4 civilians to be evacuated in the shortest time possible, and that is all

Half right half wrong. Four people, two of whom are are helpless, one of whom is a capable level 5, and one who she can't really do anything about for the immediate moment. (Touma) Priorities. Priorities, priorities. You can't argue with priorities. You can only get two people out at a time; so you pick the two people in most danger. If there were eight people there and three of them were wounded, then guess who she's supposed to get out first? The wounded ones. Then she comes back for the other ones later.
Priorities.
On a side note, it was also convenient that Kuroko ran into a larger group of people trapped when she went back to find Touma and Hyouka. But that's not immediately pertinent to my case.

No, but she IS short-sighted enough to judge who to save by order of which would be faster, when they're already short on time and two of the 4 are stupidly arguing and making a mess about it, losing precious time in the process

This makes no sense; how is Mikoto any faster to get out than Hyouka? Kuroko can teleport any two people simultaneously with herself; your point about them arguing is completely moot because she doesn't have to get them to stop arguing to teleport them. All she has to do is touch them and "poof." She displayed that perfectly well with Mikoto; Mikoto tried to protest being taken away but it didn't matter. Just tap, and they were gone. Hence your point is irrelevant; the conflict going on didn't hinder Kuroko's ability to get them out.

Except Kuroko's job is to evacuate ALL civilians, and that includes Mikoto. Who was already bitching about it

Irrelevant; they were all civilians, two of whom had absolutely no way to defend themselves, one who was a level 5, and one she couldn't immediately do anything about as opposed to the others. Anybody bit*hing about anything didn't matter. Just teleport the ones in the most danger, regardless of who is talking about what; it doesn't stop her ability to teleport.

Originally Posted by yukirosuzuka

Why would Mikoto be fighting espers and Level 0's in the back alleys of Academy City? That doesn't make sense at all. It has been said that Mikoto is simply a normal girl with powers, and Railgun clearly shows that.

Stop trying to give Mikoto a dark past that she doesn't have.

I wouldn't say Mikoto has a dark past, but given that Touma had to save a bunch of level 0s from Mikoto in the first episode, I'd say she has a habit of getting into fights. Moreover, we know she gets into fights; for one thing, she's always challenging Touma to a duel.

Originally Posted by I_am_Kami

Yah but it's just horny guys. No actual big deal. Touma and accelerator have been through more shit. I read that as a child he was almost killed because someone blamed him for his misfortune. Referenced as "the plague". I don't even need to get in details with accelerator.

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

Touma past:

None of which at all gives Touma fighting skills. How does being hit by thrown rocks make you a harder puncher? This stuff might make him more calm in the face of danger (usually it has the opposite effect though), but it doesn't give him better skills in combat or fighting.

Just like Accelerator? Just defeating the enemies with their power doesn't gives experience with figthing skills.

Originally Posted by Ashaman

Yes, in the same way that Accelerator has been doing, except to a much lesser degree, in both time and brutality.

Mikoto is a normal girl who occasionally goes out and shocks a bunch of people when they piss her off.

Accelerator is a psycho who attacts attackers and then one hit kills them. Or worse, lets them break their arms trying to hurt him and then play with them afterwards.

Touma is the unlucky guy that somehow pisses off a bunch of delinquents and then fights them off.

Of the three, only one got any real fight experience out of it, and that's Touma.

Accel was very blatently called a weakingly who relied on his ability for everything, and so against people who could counter act it, got his ass kicked. It's only against the Hound Dogs and his time in GROUP that he develops skills.

Misaka relies on a simple shock attack for most back alley crawlers, and they're down.

Compared to 1,2,4,7 and IB, who go around fighting all the time, her experience doesn't compare.

As I said to giorno, how do you know Mikoto doesn't have fighting skills? Also as I pointed out to giorno, Mikoto proved she can use tactics and creative thinking to a high degree in the Railgun manga against Frenda and Mugino. When she was already weakened before she even fought them.

Originally Posted by Wilfriback

She has friends, money, position, fame, good parents, almost everything except Touma and thats her own fault.

She is normal on Academy City standarts.

She never saw people badly injured or killed and the first time she sees one, goes insane and mentally unstable and at the end goes suicide. There is no need to check the novels on that part, she just tasted a bit of darkness and that was the inmediate aftermath.
Maybe thats why Mugino went all batshit crazy saying Mikoto doesn't knows a bit from the darkness.

All of this talk about Mikoto being "normal" is mere assumption. How does anybody here know what kind of battles she's fought? Looking at how she handled Frenda and Mugino, I'd say she's got serious skills.
But let's consider that she doesn't have skills (whch she dooes, but let's assume she doesn't); Mugino and Frenda of ITEM do. So a complete novice used skills, tactics, and creative thinking to own two experienced fighters, at least one of them a skilled tactician, and the other a powerful Esper? That's even better, because Mikoto would only be even more capable with more experience, then.
Have Stiyl watch a close friend get brutally murdered like Mikoto saw one of her MISAKA clones get brutally murdered against Accelerator. If you honestly expect Stiyl to keep his calm, then we're not watching/reading the same title. Just because Mikoto would go more "crazy" than Stiyl probably would doesn't make her less competent for having a harsher reaction; Kenshin Himura, Vash the Stampede, and fighters with (initially) less experience like Ichigo Kurosaki go BALISTIC when they see innocents get killed or even just hurt a little. It doesn't hinder them at all.

Originally Posted by giorno

Now, realistically, the only novels in which Mikoto could have taken part in the main battle(s) are novel 3, 6, 8, 13 and 16(so, yeah, not nearly as many as he claims).

I'm not sure why you think I'm saying Mikoto can get in on the action in scenes other than those...........

In two of them(3 and 13) she DID take part in it in a way, so there was no plot hole keeping her away.

"In a way."

In novel 8 she never got a chance to fight Awaki at all in the end as accelerator took her out first, and did play her role throughout the novel.

Note I never sid anything about this scene. But now I'll say she could have gotten more action here, yes, but I'm not going to dispute anything here since she at least actually did something as opposed to being conveniently kept out of the main fight.

Meaning the only real instances in which Mikoto was kept away from the battle are novels 6 and 16, which are in fact the two novels in which he's claiming Kamachi used plot holes to keep her out of it

Exactly. A bit less severe in volume 16 than in 6, though.

Originally Posted by MonkeyDude

The point still stands since hey if Mikoto was included in the fights...then hey more Mikoto right? Can we stop referring it to a plot hole when in fact it is nothing more than a convenient plot device? Meh either way this "discussion" is leading nowhere.

For the record:

"A plot device is an object or character in a story whose sole purpose is to advance the plot of the story, or alternatively to overcome some difficulty in the plot."

Doesn't quite apply; Mikoto's absence or inclusion wouldn't affect the overall plot in either direction. (her inclusion would just make more sense; character consistency and lack of plot holes)





But I just like debating something once in a while, not starting an actual argument. So if you guys are getting tired of this or anything, I can shut up and agree to disagree. At the time, I originally just came online to post new info on Jinki: Extend Relation and Karin in the manga section from the two issues of Dragon Age I got in.