[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

If that was the case, there would be no wars. However, as we can quite plainly see, our race is not so advanced. There is always something that causes us to war against each other for the last 10,000 years or more. Humans killing humans for greed, lust, property, resources, or religion. It trickles own to the individual level. As long as we have vices, wants, and desired that we cannot have but someone is willing to take...than the "victim" realistically needs a way to defend themselves from the "predator".

Well, war is pretty evil, isn't it? Something to bear in mind is that in a war situation there is no law in place to protect the participant. It's kill or be killed(If not by the enemy, by your own commander in a court-martial). In such a situation there's not much choice.

But we are discussing about how we live in a peaceful society governed by the law. In such a society we must strive to reduce all deaths to a minimum. The best way to do so is to remove the instruments by which death is inflicted.

And as I said, defend yourself, sure, but don't kill.

Originally Posted by kyp275

I had already address this in my earlier response to you which you either didn't see or chose to ignore, but I'll go over it here again.

Who are you to decide the worth of life, dignity, or possession for someone else? Again, should someone who is about to be raped lay there and be raped instead of fighting back with deadly force because, as you said, no one should have the right to kill another under ANY circumstances? What about the police? should they also give up their weapons? after all, they can just ask the criminals nicely to stop, just like the rape victim before right? same goes for the military, everyone should just carry a deck of card and settle the fight with a game of poker.

It's your right to have a very idealistic view of the world and how it should be, but when it comes to policy making, I prefer ones drafted with reality in mind.

There are many ways to defend yourself non-lethally. You can use pepper spray, Tasers or a cane to bludgeon them. All these things can cause them significant pain or injury and grant you the opportunity to escape, without ever requiring you to kill the other person.

The reality I speak of is perfectly feasible. The police in my own country do not carry guns. My country continues to function quite well. A bat is more then enough to subdue the criminals of this world. Sometimes they can carry guns if it is strictly necessary. Thankfully that is not a frequent occurrence.

As for the military, they should not exist, but they are a necessary evil to deter invasion by others.

No one should be deprived of their right to protect their OWN life. And for that matter, every human society bestows the right to kill another to certain members of said society, the only difference is who.

I do not think we should bestow that right on anyone, but if we do, that person must be judged to be of completely sound mind and body, and to encapsulate our ideals of justice. It should not be a privilege enjoyed by all. Only by special forces and judges, acting in accordance with the law.

atheist making a religious argument?

God is the only entity with the perfect omniscience necessary to do something so final correctly. Given that no person exists with such abilities, I don't believe anyone should have the right to kill another.

Pray tell, what's this "many means for self defence that does not require it". Really, I'm waiting here. Apparently you have some secret technology the rest of the world haven't even heard of.

Enjoy. If anything, I'd say these things are more effective then a gun. Any criminal hit with these will be immediately immobilized and unable to take further action, enabling you to escape. A gun shot wound, on the other hand, is often easy to ignore, as it often causes little pain (Reagan got shot by a sniper and didn't even realise it until he saw the blood!).

TBH, gundamfan went a bit over the deep end there, you on the other hand went off the deep end on the other side here. Deprivation of a person's right to protect themselves? are you nuts?

It's perfectly possible to defend yourself without killing another human being. Defend, don't kill.