[monster]

Originally Posted by Haak

That's very helpful to me considering GundamOfficial's site is dead, so I'm just going to go ahead and assume you're pulling that out of your arse. If you have any objections to that, then feel free to give me an actual source next time...

http://web.archive.org/web/201205300...l#juniustreaty

Does the Junius Treaty prohibit obtaining the NJC altogether?

The question is, how would Orb obtain an NJC?

No, the point you made was that the EA didn't care about the consequences. Stop playing semantics.

MAD not being a factor because they've already gone past that point, does not prove that the EA doesn't care about MAD at all. Thus MAD can still be a factor against Orb.

MAD was never a factor.

Yzak's mother very clearly talked about EA planning on using more nuclear weapons to encourage the nation to destroy EA before they could. ZAFT obviously knew the EA would try and launch more strikes, but they very clearly did not see that particular strike coming so soon. Please don't quote Yzak's mother's speech out of context. Just because she mentions nuclear strikes coming in the future, does not mean she knew that strike would happen so soon. Everything points to them being surprised by it.

The point of promising not to let anymore nuclear weapon be used against them is to be ready to defend the PLANTs at any time, not just in some future attack.

But not in this case, as I have already explained. Given what other plans they had it seems very clear that experimenting with nuclear weapons again is the most reasonable thing to do. Assuming they don't care about MAD of course...



Episode 9 after the stampeder has been used:

"The Stampeder's quantum fresnels have melted and activated the breaker. The system has now stopped functioning"

"I'm glad the Stampeder just made it in time"

"But it'll only work once. They'll know better the next time"

Phase 11 showed that it was a shock to them at seeing their entire nuclear force eliminated in an instant. So much so that, when pressured by the other members of LOGOS, Djibril decided to come up with another way of destroying the PLANTs. Obviously they didn't think nuclear weapons are good enough to do the job any longer.

And why would they want to do that, pray tell? It seems very obvious they made it a last resort in case the EA were capable of nuclear strikes or something similar again.

It seems very obvious that Zala was intent on destroying the EA.

And Orb were already in battle hence why they needed to regroup. That's not going to be the case in this situation. The EA have no reason to believe they can get to Orb's mass driver before Orb can. It's just not logically possible.

And if you're making a point about experience, then their experience tells them they won't get the Mass Driver. The differentiation shouldn't matter right?

Still, if they ever need a mass driver, Orb's mass driver will always be an option.

The Destroys clearly didn't prove to be enough and even then they could have used nuclear weapons. There is absoutely nothing in the show to suggest they used the Destroys out of efficiency over nuclear weapons and if you're using the point that the EA want to rebuild and repopulate then you also have to accept that the EA cares about the consequences of MAD.

No, it just means that the EA cares about the consequences of nuclear explosions on Earth.

You've also once again inadvertently proven that EA wouldn't want to use nuclear weapons on Orb.

But it won't be out of fear of MAD.

And where would they have that perspective from?

Experience.

That one that they got is only useful if they get the other two and they didn't so that one that they got is completely useless to them. And the fate remains that Orb was still able to hide whatever it wants from the EA. It didn't need Freedom and Justice to do that.

Irrelevant. The conversation between Azrael and Sutherland still showed that they still believe they had a chance. So, like I said, if they ever need something Orb again, attacking Orb would still be an option.

So you're moving the goal posts then?

Just to be clear you said my point that Orb would not reverse it's ideals so easily would be valid if Orb didn't think they could deter EA from an imminent threat.

To me the idea that they would completely change their ideals fro something that isn't even an imminent threat is not something I care to even argue about.

It may not be imminent, but the fact that it happened mere 2 years after the first conflict over similar reasons and with the same parties could not escape Orb. Even if it's not imminent, it's highly likely to happen again as history seems to be repeating itself.

1. And as I have pointed out just because Orb can't gaurentee it (you can't guarantee anything), doesn't mean they're going to automatically believe it will happen. The only reason they would is if they have a perspective that's preventing them and that's ciruclar logic because you said it's their reasons against detterence that's what lead them to their perspective, not the other way around.

2. And once again, experience isn't going to be the only thing for them to go on unless they have that perspective which you can't assume they would.

So let me ask again: which one is it?

It's both.

The reason you think it's circular logic is probably because you're mixing two different experiences that I'm talking about.

The first experience is that Orb saw how the EA found itself needing a mass driver in the course of the war, which is something that Orb happened to have. This would lead to the perspective that Orb is a valuable nation.

The second experience is that Orb also saw how the EA attacked Orb even though Orb was considered a powerful nation in SEED. This would lead to another perspective that Orb could not deter an attack from the EA when they want something from Orb.

Thus, given the two perspectives, the Seirans proposed joining the EA as a preemptive move so that the EA won't attack Orb.

Now, it's true that Orb also has the experience that it was freed again after the war ended. But it was at a cost, and obviously the people who sided with the Seirans didn't think the cost was worth risking another attack.

No, since as i pointed out, Orb risked the rest of ZAFT getting involved and you didn't deny that.

No, because as I said, ZAFT was there for the Archangel, not for Orb.

There's a chance that the rest of ZAFT won't get involved over 1 ship. But when the EA fleet itself came for Orb itself, that's a different story altogether. And it showed: While Athrun's 1 ship did not attack, the EA fleet did attack.

So clearly deterring a ZAFT ship who was not there for Orb doesn't mean that Orb could deter an EA fleet. In fact, Yuna proved in Destiny that Orb can't deter an attack even from ZAFT when ZAFT actually had a reason to go after Orb.