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Originally Posted by Triple_R
She wasn't cautious in the Charlotte fight for a reason completely unrelated to Homura. Mami was obviously on an emotional high given her blossoming friendship with Madoka.
...Why should she have already known that? She only met Madoka and Sayaka a couple days ago! A couple days is the bare minimum of time to build up a certain level of trust with people you just met.
During the time period between Mami's fallout with Kyouko, and Mami meeting Madoka and Sayaka, it is strongly implied that Mami's really didn't have any friends. We certainly never see Mami socializing with other people, aside from Madoka and Sayaka.
It's perfectly understandable for Mami to be on that emotional high that unfortunately made her a bit sloppy.
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I hope you realize that you are acknowledging that it is a perfectly valid for Mami to believe she was in no danger fighting Charlotte, even if it's counterintuitive to the nature of battle.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
In other words, it's a viable argument. It might be incorrect, but it also could be correct, and if it is correct, then there's your rational reason for further conflict between Kyouko and Sayaka.
You have no basis whatsoever for declaring me "wrong" on this point. My argument on this point is perfectly viable.
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No, a sound argument does not rely on evidence that just might or might not be true. All that does to your argument is make it maybe correct and maybe incorrect as if it's fine either way. That is not a convincing argument.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
Not necessarily. Kyouko has a personal history with Mami that she didn't have with Sayaka, so it's not hard to believe that Kyouko was uncomfortable with the idea of her killing Mami given their previous friendship. It's not that strange for a person to find it easier to kill a stranger than it is to kill a person you were once friends with.
That was probably part of it, but it doesn't have to be all of it.
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If you admit that personal feelings had a role, then your argument that Kyouko returned to Mitakihara, provoked Sayaka, and fought her on multiple occasions primarily for the number of Grief Seeds she can get is not entirely correct.
Those feelings play a large role in Kyouko's actions and are the only consistent part about her character that would explain why she chose to tell only Sayaka about her past, and why she chose to gamble against Oktavia, and later kamikaze against her despite there being no real way to save a Witch.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
No, that's incorrect. Sayaka now has first-hand evidence of her being very useful to Mami through healing her.
But now she did take significant damage, so that should impact their view on Mami. It's quite silly to think Mami is some infallible Puella Magi who doesn't need any help from others when she just needed exactly that simply to survive.
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That significant damage was caused by Mami covering for Sayaka. This does not prove that Mami would be ever be injured under normal circumstances.
And keep in mind that Sayaka did
not defeat the Witch that injured Mami -- Kyouko and Homura did, which makes it look even worse for Sayaka because not one, but
three people in all had to cover for her.
So no, Sayaka was not "very useful". To the
readers, Sayaka is useful because we are genre-savvy and know how useful a healing ability can be. To Sayaka, she was just applying first-aid. With Kyubey giving her orders to do so, I'm pretty sure the scene was meant to look like a person applying first-aid instead of being a miracle that only Sayaka could do.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
These are absolutely ridiculous conclusions to come to when Sayaka's contribution had recently been necessary, and Mami had just shown herself to be fallible enough to get hurt in the first place.
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You mean Sayaka's contribution along with two other magical girls.
And why is it fine that Mami can believe she can take Witches on her own in the anime, but Sayaka who idolizes Mami can't believe the same thing?
How does getting hurt because your partner was a liability and a detriment in fighting prove that Mami would get hurt fighting on her own?
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
No, I'm not "missing the focus". Yes, the main issue was Sayaka feeling guilty over a brief moment of weakness. My argument is that she allowed that guilt to spiral ridiculously out of control to the point that she made absolutely stupid and counterproductive decisions. This, in my view, is Sayaka becoming flanderized. It's taking a legitimate character flaw, but blowing it out of proportion to the point where it ruins a character.
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Do you realize that Sayaka's breaking point in the anime wasn't the nature of Soul Gems (to which by the way, she never learned the entire truth that
would have justified her reaction), but after she attacked those two men on the train?
In Sayaka's final exchange to Kyouko (which also happened to be at the train station, she talks about how hope and despair are a zero-sum game. "For as much happiness as we wish on one person, we can't help but curse someone else. That's how it works for us magical girls."
Sayaka realized that she isn't a hero of justice and is as selfish as anyone else. Understanding that destroyed her resolve in any medium.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
Why should she brush off an accident like that? It's very foolish and stupid to think that Mami could never get injured again. It's much more sensible to think that Mami may well one day need help again.
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That help can come from any other magical girl. "I'm sure you can find someone better than me". This is a very common line of thinking.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
No, it isn't a clear-cut matter. The alternative is potentially absorbing very painful and debilitating blows. There's considerable pros and cons on both sides, so Sayaka's decision is understandable here.
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If Sayaka was fighting normally and replenishing her magic with Grief Seeds, then it would have been a fair either/or question.
Again, remember that she was actively refusing to use Grief Seeds. Using Grief Seeds is one of the first and most basic things that Mami told her and Madoka about magical girls. Without using Grief Seeds, her magic is greatly limited in supply. She can't afford to use her healing magic so frequently.
In fact, I would wager that was why Sayaka lost her life even in the TV version of the Law of Cycles world. It's quite obvious that she wasn't efficient with her magic.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
She also had this potential reason in the anime, but it didn't even come up there. It was, at most, secondary to Sayaka clearly feeling very distraught over "being a zombie".
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Fair enough. I can agree with that.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
Sayaka had much more valid reason to not confess to Kyousuke in the anime than she did in the manga. In the manga, Kyousuke even gave her the perfect opportunity to confess. In the anime, she had no such good opportunity.
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Hitomi was perfectly honest and gave her an opportunity to confess in either medium. The fact that Sayaka spit on that honesty by putting Hitomi's life in danger makes a very understandable excuse for her to think twice about being that selfish again.
Remember that Sayaka told Kyousuke she would tell him everything "in a day's time". Hitomi gave Sayaka a day to confess. It's heavily implied that Sayaka was giving up her chance to Hitomi out of guilt for leaving her to die. Giving up one day is the least she can do for almost costing Hitomi her life.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
You're downplaying things here. I would have had less issue if Sayaka had said "I need some time to myself, Mami. I just don't feel up to working with you right now. Maybe sometime later we can work together again, but not right now." That would have been "sulking and distancing herself".
No, Sayaka went farther than that in this manga. She explicitly and totally severed things with Mami, to the point where it was handled almost like a romantic break-up (consider Sayaka's tears after she severed things with Mami).
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Why should Sayaka make promises she can't keep? As I already established before, Sayaka believes she is as unworthy of being Mami's partner as Kyouko is, maybe even moreso for being weaker. From Sayaka's perspective, Mami and Kyouko mutually severed their partnership because they no longer stood for the same thing - a difference in beliefs.
If Sayaka had
tried to fight the Witch, even if it was half-heartedly due to her emotions, she would have had some proof there was some part of her who did her job protecting others. However, she didn't and openly admits to letting Hitomi die intentionally - not by accident. That fact will never go away, which means Sayaka has reason to believe she will never be a hero worthy of being by Mami's side.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
Found out about the Soul Gem reveal, which was tremendously impacting to her. Everything you mentioned occurs after that reveal. That reveal never happened in the manga, and that's why I find her manga decline much harder to roll with than her anime decline.
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Part of her decline. You keep emphasizing the Soul Gem "reveal" - which wasn't even the entire truth behind it - when Sayaka expressed regret regarding her
other actions, like hurting her closest friend and wishing harm on others despite knowing how wrong it is.
You are identifying with the devastating loss with her humanity when
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
It depends on how long your career is. If Sayaka had been doing this for years, then yes, one or two outstanding achievements is no big deal. But for a raw rookie who hadn't been doing this for very long at all to already have been tremendously helpful to her more veteran ally... Yeah, that means a lot. This should have been much more reassuring to Sayaka than what it was.
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You do realize that line of logic applies to Sayaka in the anime as well, right? In fact, Sayaka has even
more reason to feel better about herself in the anime, since she defeated Witches and saved people all by herself.
One achievement that wasn't even entirely her own isn't something to be proud about, especially when you needed the help of sworn rivals/enemies that openly oppose your ideals.. With Sayaka's mind being elsewhere, it should be easy to see that she wasn't pulling her own weight.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
It can for people who have a strong sense of their humanity, and value it greatly.
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To the point where they disregard the value of their soul? No, that's an absurd conclusion.
I can understand Sayaka withholding her confession from Kyousuke in the anime because she feels that she is now an entirely different species, but viewing herself to be a monster devoid of integrity is another issue.
Regardless of what beliefs you have, the soul is nearly always defined to be something that carries the essence of who or what you are. Considering the existence of such a thing is shown to be even tangible and intact to Sayaka, she does not have a reason to disregard the fact that she is the person who saved a close friend and the guy she loves.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
No, she didn't. Did she try talking things out with Mami before severing things with her? Did she even consider Mami's perspective on this? Did she suggest any ways for her and Mami to become more efficient as a team?
She didn't try any of that. So no, she didn't really try.
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You don't know this. If you read the chapter text I quoted last time, you should have noticed that Sayaka didn't leave Mami anytime soon after that accident. Quite some time passed, to the point where Sayaka had the time to talk to Kyousuke, thank Kyouko, thank Homura another day in class, and meet with Kyouko again another night before she decided to leave Mami.
Madoka would also need several days before she can reasonably conclude Sayaka has been upset recently and tell Mami about it before Sayaka does.
So at the very least, Sayaka
did stay and fight together with Mami a bit more before she left.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
How can I be "entirely wrong" about something I never even claimed? You're trying to put words into my mouth here, and I do not appreciate it.
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Are you telling me you didn't claim Sayaka spiraled down all too quickly based on what few events we see of her, when we barely see her spiral down at all?
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
Sure I have sufficient evidence. It was hardly developed at all. It happened very fast with no real sign of Sayaka trying to soldier through.
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Being hardly developed in this case means you didn't see Sayaka spiral out of control. You saw Sayaka make only a couple of choices that only the readers can know are self-destructive because we know how Soul Gems work. To Sayaka, she was punishing herself for the right reasons.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
It's for both reasons. What I'm suggesting is tied into the first reason. Her entire side of the story isn't shown so it feels rushed and underdeveloped and it makes Sayaka look incredibly weak and self-destructive.
However, I'm glad you can at least admit that this manga did not treat Sayaka fairly. I'm glad we agree on that much at least.
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Does Sayaka dealing with Kyouko calmly and being mature enough to thank her and Homura for saving Mami not matter to you? She could have accused both of them being opportunists waiting for Mami to get taken down so they could have the Grief Seed all for themselves like she blamed Homura for doing just that in the anime, but she didn't.
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Originally Posted by Triple_R
You act like this is strange. But this is a pretty common anime trope. "I have lost my humanity, ergo I am a monster". You really wouldn't be the least bit effected if you felt you had lost your humanity?
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In most cases, people have no evidence to prove that they are the same person as before. Here, they have a convenient object called a
Soul Gem, which retains the same shape from its formation all the way to the magical girls' "death" as they transform into Witches.
Even if Sayaka couldn't believe she was the same person she was before she became a magical girl, what reason does she have to believe she's not the same person who protected Madoka from a Witch and healed the one guy she loved? Her Soul Gem had the same form back then as it did after Madoka tossed it out.
What reason does she have to actively refuse using Grief Seeds when she was fine using them before and had no knowledge of the truth behind them?