[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

That is exactly it. You think that whatever happens in the source material should also apply to the anime, when nothing could be further from the truth. You're so familiar with the source material that it builds up preconceived notions about characters, events, themes, or even the plot details that while it might be sound in the source material, it doesn't necessarily hold true for its adaptation. With all due respect, and absolutely no offense to you, but it already happened numerous times in regards with you.

Ahem, excuse me? Last I heard, this series was an adaptation of original source material, which by association means it should be a transposition of the source material's themes onto another medium. Failure to do even a basic thing as that simply constitutes an unreasonable level of Adaptation Decay, and a failure as an adaptation. My expectations are well within reason, so honestly I am none too pleased that you once again tried to pull a Bulverism on me.

"Damn, he's really good. I need to try extra harder to beat him." And in doing so, Chiaki lost his feeling with the music, overdoing things with his conducting. Chiaki saw how good his opponent is, and rather than being panicked, he resolved himself to outdo his opponent. Which as we all know is the wrong method to approach the problem, as he didn't do too well for the very same reason before with the second string orchestra.

Which is the reason for his crisis of confidence. Get it yet?

All I've been telling you is at the very least they have suggested that the reason Chiaki won was because he finally embraced the music. It wasn't explicitly stated, but it was implied by Chiaki's observance of how Katagiri did his conducting, further evidenced by Chiaki's speech before his final piece, and symbolically represented by finally using that stupid doll thing Nodame gave him (BURN IT! ugly piece of trash lol).

And yes, they did suggest it in the anime itself; it's not something I just pulled out of thin air. There's a big difference between fanwank (which mainly deals with suppositions of certain events happening when they didn't actually occur and has no basis at all in canon) and digging a little bit deeper beneath the surface of what actually occurs in the material.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. The episode merely showed the former sequences, and then cut straight to the prize presentation; I know that the former sequences were directly correlated to the results from the manga, but if we were to go by the anime alone as you keep insisting that we should, then it merely looks like the former caused the latter, with no definite cause-effect link between the two sequences no thanks to the butcher job.

Semantics; point holds true whether or not it was 'he didn't do his best' or 'he didn't try hard enough'. I dunno about you, but the bolded part still sounds like an excuse no matter how you look at it. He is blaming his loss on a factor that is not based on the merits of his actual perfomance, but rather something he could but didn't do just because of a certain reason or other. The very fact that he would be saying that he might even so have a small chance in beating Chiaki if he tried harder is the mark of a sore loser.

Really, if I won a competition and my closest rival said 'Congratulations, but [i]I did not feel like I lost because I underestimated you[i]. Thus I didn't try hard enough so I lost, but I vow never to do the same again' screams nothing but unsportsmanlike to me. You lost... deal with it and suck it up like a man. Don't say that you didn't try harder or whatever, it's all excuses at this point.

On the otherhand, if my closest rival said 'Congratulations, but I did not feel like I lost because I tried my best and there's nothing else I could've done, nor is there anything I regret', it's actually a compliment. Enough to warrant a sportsmanlike response of 'I didn't feel like I won, though', don't you think? (And no, Chiaki is anything but humble, so it certainly wasn't through humility)

On the contrary, I would think that his admitting that he underestimated Chiaki until it was too late would constitute a tacit apology on his part for such, and therefore a compliment in its own right, if somewhat backhanded. It's just interpretations at this point.

That the only difference between him and Jean is that he embraced his music while there was absolutely no evidence to support Jean embraced his music like Katagiri did, and that's why Chiaki won over Jean?

Was Roland's "observations" of Jean's "white roses aura" and the judges comments on his "natural flair" completely lost on you, or did you choose not to factor them in because it is inconvenient to your interpretation?

It wasn't just so simple as the sentence from Nodame. As I said before, Chiaki explicitly acknowledge the error of his ways when he saw Katagiri, and then following through this revelation as exhibited by his final speech before the orchestra. Symbolic imagery of Chiaki finally using that stupid doll (need I repeat how fugly I think that thing looks? but I digress) sealed the deal that this is no fluke but actually intended on JC staff's part.

Another post hoc ergo propter hoc.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you want the animators to explicitly show how big of a difference was his performance in comparison to Jean? If that is so, then I ask, what is there to show? Going by Chiaki's 'I did not feel like I won, either', he did not win by a considerable margin. The difference in their music would be so small that only musical experts would be able to tell which is better, which in turn would be lost to the majority of the viewers. And we don't even know if they'll be able to recreate such a small difference in quality in the first place. Regardles, instead of trying to show such a small difference and quite possibly failing, they did the right thing and left it to our imaginations, guided by the numerous clues inbedded through the episode, how exactly Chiaki embracing his music produced that 'small difference' that is the margin for his victory.

Yes, it's a big departure from where it seems like he completely omgwtfbbq'ed Jean's ass in the finals, but it fits the context of the episode considering what they purposely omitted (Jean's flaw of not being a hard worker). If they have shown Jean as a slacker then there would be big doubts considering how Chiaki won the finals. But considering there has been no negative remarks about Jean's performance, and all of it positive, we can only assume that Jean consistently placing first in other tourneys is the product of talent and effort.

I did not say that I was expecting J.C. Staff to show the difference in the music, which as you did point out rightly, would be lost to most. However, what they also cut out was the judge's critiques in the final round, which does explicitly describe the differences between Chiaki and Jean from the experts' point of view, and makes it an apparent plot progression to boot, instead of the ambiguous "leaving it to our imagination" gag.

Moreover, you committed a fallacy of quoting out of context. I did not say Chiaki "completely omgwtfbbq'ed Jean's ass", and I never meant anything remotely like that when I said that Chaiki's work ethic is the critical factor in his victory. Therefore, I don't see how it would be "showing Jean as a slacker", and how it would lead to "big doubts considering how Chiaki won the finals".

To each his own, but all I'm going to say is this. We already know that one of Chiaki's greatest strengths would be that he is a hard worker, and showing that he triumphed over someone who is NOT shows very little, if any growth in his path to become a great conductor. Showing how he succusefuly just edged out his closest competitor by enjoying the music on the other hand shows that he is working on his biggest flaw, and thus exhibits the first step on greatness.

Showing that Chiaki triumphed over Jean partially due to his work ethic may not show much growth, but the point remains that it was a key component of Chiaki's character, and omitting that in favour of the "enjoy the music" theme is not only succumbing to a False Dilemma, but also raises the Unfortunate Implication that hard work doesn't matter as long as you can enjoy the music. Before you build a great tower, you first need a firm foundation; by omitting the portrayal of Chiaki's firm foundation here, it made Chiaki look like he's channeling Jean instead, eskewing work ethic for indulgence in the melody. That is somehow "the first step on greatness" to you?

True, hard work is important in Nodame Cantabile, but in Chiaki's case we already know he has it in spades. That being the case, the message is more powerful with Chiaki overcoming adversity by working on his flaw as someone who rarely truely enjoys the music. Nodame on the other hand is the perfect candidate for emphasizing the hard work part.

Again, False Dilemma. Just because there are two themes to be portrayed doesn't mean that one has to be sacrificed for the other.