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Originally Posted by Kaijo
Young girls fighting monsters who are preying on humans. Where have I seen this before? Yes, it's not exact, but it is very close. We don't know what witches are, so that hurts it, and perhaps would help. If it was somehow hinted that witches weren't the bad thing we thought they were, then it would be more interesting to me.
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...Taking the a single point of a series arguably doesn't define it. Or else, I can simply consider all gundam series the same because they have "gundams" "saving" "colonies" which would definitely attract the rage of purists. Likewise, I don't think people would agree to put all mecha type together, especially with antipodes like Evangelion, Gundam and Code Geass, sharing few "elements" but arguably drastically different.
Therefore, stopping yourself on a single description line, where how the characters are played and the actual consequences matter the most, doesn't exactly ring me as a very good statement.
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This is exemplified in Kyoko. Sure, she had a bad past, but she enjoys her powers and the present. If someone is enjoying the powers, then it's not really a "Suck" situation.
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That's fallacy. You just cannot take someone else experiencing the same, but reacting differently and conclude "the situation doesn't suck" (be it in general or by that trope definition).
A situation is deemed X or Y, depending of the person affected by it. Otherwise, should a person A consider themselves "lucky" to earn xxxx$ per month, because a person B consider that lucky, because they earn a lower wage?
The fact Kyoko settled her mind doesn't make Sayaka's situation any less reasonable that it is. It may work for Kyoko, but that doesn't mean other girls would accept it readily like that.
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Which is all in her mind. To misquote the bard again: "Has she not human eyes and ears? When you prick her, does she not bleed?"
We have many stories of people where their spirits disconnect from their bodies, or say someone becomes a ghost. Are they any less human, if they still possess human thoughts and feelings? You're right that I'm looking at it in a coldly logical way (which I've stressed over and over). Because emotions are just in the mind, and each of us decides what we want to be, and what we want to think of ourselves.
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Except we also have a lot of examples defining a sheer difficulty for a character to accept that. It seems rather unreasonable to use outside example, and paste the situation over them.
It just doesn't work like that.
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I'd argue that's in the mind. We humans can convince ourselves of anything if we want, and live just fine. What kind of life you have and lead, is totally up to you. It is up to you to come to terms with who you are. No one else can do that for you.
I'm reminded of the Doctor from Star Trek: Voyager, and how he became human. And one episode in particular, where he had a breakdown because he saved one patient and not another. They deleted his memory, but later were convinced to let him sit in the holosuite and work through it. He seemed very much a sentient creature to me, despite a lack of a flesh and blood body.
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Exactly, so why are you actually defining Sayaka like that, whereas the character obviously doesn't share the same point of view?
It is actually the same basis: an individual will think of a given situation this way, while another may think otherwise. It is all dependant of their circumstances, backstory, personality and whatnot.
In the case of Sayaka, for now, she is unable to cope with it, and I see no reason for it be unreasonable: she learns her existence isn't like it was before, and basically sees her different, not human.
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Because as I quoted, I see this as the very definition of the trope. The powers are awesome, and I've stated before that practically everyone here would have wanted them, or at least visualized themselves as heroes gaining power to fight bad things. They never saw such powers as a bad thing.
Just like with Setsuna, who thought her wings made her ugly and inhuman, when really most people would love to have such wings.
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Powers do not equal to what difference it leads to.
Do you really think powers are actually the issue here? Why would Sayaka turn quite excited when she is having her first sortie against a witch? That is really not the issue.
The sole issue is that -she does not see her human any longer-. Period.
You may say that it is awesome, but I personally disagree: I can't imagine how awesome it is to be in some sort of avatar instead of being actually yourself.
As for Setsuna, what she says is a exclamation of her fear of rejection, because she isn't human. The fact she has powers isn't the issue, but the wings are a proof she isn't "human", which is the true issue. And as shown afterwards, she learns that people do not care that much if she is human or not, clearing her fears and mind.
That doesn't make the character wrong by any means: it is something that is perfectly reasonable for people who fear rejection and the likes, and I see no reason to think that it is a stretch that someone can't see themselves as human as their peers.
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And as I said, that's in her mind. Biologically speaking, not much has changed. Just the way she thinks about herself. That's for her to work out, and maybe it convinces you that this is bad, but it doesn't for me, which is the only main point I was making: I am not convinced.
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I'm sorry, but she is definitely not the same biologically: Biologically speaking, a body cannot regenerate and so forth. You may say it is a semantic play, but that's the truth: she is not a human being, and the body itself is also attesting it.
That's actually why I think you are simply looking at the practical aspect of the situation, whereas the important factor is how a character is responding to it.
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Then the logical conclusion you come to, is that there are people who look human, but can be sub-human or non-human to you. That's a dangerous slippery slope to go down. I suppose that's why I stick to a more logical standpoint.
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Do not put words in my mouth, I never stated it is a thesis or a fact, I'm actually explaining what people could have felt, which are illustrations/examples. While I do not agree that a scar will turn someone less than human, some people will actually think so, and I can attest such occurences aren't so rare in reality (auto mutilation and so forth in psychiatric ward, burned people in an intensive care ward etc).
Turning everything on logic and practical aspect just doesn't cut it when we are dealing with a character responding emotionally. I would actually agree if Sayaka starts saying that "the body is unpractical and whatnot".
However, it is perfectly clear that she considers herself as "non human", which cannot be explained with pure logic, but rather with affect and psyche.
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I partially agreed with this, when I said that if I was a teenaged girl, I might be more sympathetic. But endless teenage girl angst and whining doesn't entertain me, anymore than it did in Twilight. And obviously, Twilight has it's fans, so great on them. Not every work can appeal to everyone, obviously.
The rest of what you're saying, I understand, it's just not convincing. The fact that Kyoko is living proof that one can accept it, and still lead a "normal" life shatters the notion. If Sayaka can't get over it, that's her problem. And I expect some angst; just not endless amounts of it. As the trope said, then it drops down into wangst territory.
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I dunno about you Kaijo, but I seriously think you are trapping yourself into a world of definitions that simply ignore all circumstances. Using a trope is rather dubious to begin with. Using it as reference may be fine to you, but you are actually using it as word of evangile, defining a situation as the trope sees it, ignoring completely the situation we have, portrayed by the author.
And I don't get how you consider it as a "endless amount of angst". The girl barely get hit by such revelation, and doesn't have any idea what do to for now, then before she could even even suck it up, one of her best friends nudge the very touchy subject, leading to even more complications.
And everything probably lasted for less than a week, so I really don't see how you can label it as "endless amount of angst".
As much as I find Sayaka flawed and that she had it coming, I believe the "angst" she has displayed is perfectly in line with the situation and character.
It would be quite unatural for her to accept it as readily as Kyoko, or being able to cope it after Hitomi's ultimatum.