[VezSketch]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I don't know but i think this will be the beginning of a loong friendship xDDD!!

I'll have a field day with this post xD!

Oh, thought I did.

Nanoha's hand was glowing, she wasn't blocking Subaru's hand with mere physical strenght in any way, she battle with Signum using RH's and barriers as support and battled Tohma while assisted by a moving floating mini-fortress, hardly feats of raw physical strenght xDU If Nanoha attempted to block Subaru's punches withouth using magic she'll probably end with broken fingers at best xDU

It's accepted mages' strength are augmented with magic (it's why they're so physically impressive in the first place and the source of their power. Eclipse Drivers' strength are augmented by energy, too), Nanoha's hand glowing doesn't mean anything. She specifically disables her device and catches both of their attacks (Teana's blade made her hand bleed). Although we don't know the details of this specific fight, Nanoha is shown being to go into close combat with Signum in that panel. Thoma was going at Nanoha physically and she was capable of warding off his attacks - she may have been using the Fortress, but they're mana driven equipment.

It's indeed a feat, the fact is that we don't have evidence about the kind of feat as we didn't see how they blocked the attacks xD. Isis have some excuse but Agito doeasn't there's nothing there to sugguest she should be even able to tank Tohma's Silver Hammer.

Agito didn't tank it, she was damaged. She presumably threw up a shield, too.

It is a special shield, in fact, it's called wheel protection and is pretty powerfull to deflect attacks, some of Chrono's blades amnage to go directly into Zafira's arm, tough.

I'm aware of the name and it in no way makes it a special shield. Only a few blades made it past his shield.

And all of that they was achieved at their ultimate states of power (Fate's Shin Sonic form, Vita's finisher attack, Zest's limit break etc...) and putting all of their magical and physical power togheter.

Fate was in her Shin Sonic form, yeah. She was still under an AMF when she accomplished the feat, though. And she now uses more powerful variants. Vita's move in A's is not her finisher attack, she has demonstrated stronger ones. Full Drive is only using the most powerful form of a device. They were not putting their power together to accomplish the feats I cited. Vita was able to lift and swing something estimated to be over millions of tons in a fraction a second, the strength of her regular physical attacks with a compact Graf Eisen would be much stronger than the feats weaker characters have accomplished.

Also Fate's sowrd lacks weight becuase it's a lightblade which actually makes sense cause it works well with her high-speed fightstyle.

Her sword clearly has weight, but I don't really see your point in mentioning this. My point is high tier mages' melee attacks are stronger than Subaru's. No idea why you're bringing up "raw physical strength" when it wasn't the point.

The ViVid girls are truly impressive but there's also somejustification. Einhart didn't break the golem with strenght alone, she caste and used a technique of her school of magically enhaced martial arts xDU

She firstly stops the Golem's fist attack with one hand, catches it and then throws it back at the Golem, that's all she did. Said fist attack destroys the Golem. Every mage's strength is augmented by magic.

As for Rio's case, i bet she enhaces her physical strenght somehow ...if not, then she's probably also physically stronger than most Section Six members. As no one of them have such a feat of Raw physical strenght. Until seeing further confirmation i'll agree on Rio being stronger than Subaru since i haven't see har doing something like that yet.

What? The little girls participating in Vivid aren't that powerful, where are you getting that from? And no, she is not stronger than Section Six members. Subaru is far stronger than Rio, meaning Rio's feat can be applied to her. Rio isn't stronger. And of course her physical strength is enhanced by magic - everyone's is.

Stronger overall, but not physically. The people cleaving gadgets drones does wielding devices who shoot or do enhaced meele attacks, Subaru is the only one who consistently rush trough them with punches and kicks, something no one else besides Ginga does.

Of course they're wielding devices, I never said they weren't - that wasn't the point of the discussion. Ginga and Subaru also wield devices and their strength is augmented by magic. They're still physical attacks.

Let's take into account that, for Sword Break to work Subaru first must hold still the blade in question. She has been able to stop flat the attacks of two VERY physically strong adversaries with the grip of her hand. And in an age where everyone is falling down like flies due to the Eclipse leaving their shields and barriers useless, Subaru is the only one who received equipement specifically designed to keep her as a cross-range fistfighter. That's some great confidence on her strenght and durability compared with everyone else who received upgrades that allow them to save face and keep some distance from EC Drivers on the battlefield (Strike Cannon and Ochstan beign guns, Fortrss mode, Signum's shooting shield, War Hammer's long plasma pile, etc).

This has no relevance in the comparison of the strength of the characters. Subaru's entire style is physical ...

Because of one of Cypha's powers is specifically to be hard as hell.

Yes, Cypha is durable, yet Fate and Signum were able to cut her while Quinn couldn't. Fate and Signum can match Cypha in close combat, Cypha cut Quinn down with one hit. Esclipse Drivers are not absurdly more powerful than everyone else, it's their anti magic for the most part.

She also understand very well hoe EC energy works so she might be able to counter the effect of Quinn's attack (Cypha was explaining the nature of the attack as she seems to disperse some energy near the attackzone on her neck).

This is baseless speculation.

Quinn is able to cut trough AEC-Equipement like nothing so that's a REALLY bad omen for Signum if she tries to fight her.

AEC-Equipment is magic driven, being able to cut through Erio's doesn't mean she could do the same to Signum's. She's far more powerful. Feats show Signum can end Quinn in a similar manner as Cypha did.

I wonder when Fate got an "upper hand in battle" xDU. So far she has been fought Cypha who gives her an even fight and Deville who managed to hold her at bay without breaking a sweat once he reacted.

Cypha did not damage Fate in their fight and DeVille was not shown "not breaking a sweat." That's simply you making it sound more impressive than it was shown. We do not see much of their fight at all after he reacted and Fate was shown besting him in his base form.

The reason why Nanoha didn't used blaster system, blaster bits, or her other array of attack it's simply because she know they're useless against Tohma ...or any other EC Driver for that matter.

The reasons don't matter - the fact is she didn't use them (something you just said was true), meaning she wasn't operating under full power as the AEC weaponry are not (and hasn't been proven to be) as powerful and was therefore handicapped. She was also attempting to disable him, very much like the fight with Vivio on the Cradle.

Nanoha fought using the attacks of her AEC-Weaponry, attacks that, unlike her usual magic, lack a "stun" setting, Strike Cannon's and Fortress Attacks provoke very real damage, damage that fortunately Tohma was able to shrug off due to a powerfull regeneration power.

His regeneration wasn't the reason why he shrugged them off, they failed to do any significant damage.

I can't see why you say Deville is lacking in physicall strenght when we saw him fending off Fate's attacks without problem.

Only a reacted DeVille was shown to be able to fend off Fate's attacks. He's not lacking in strength, Base DeVille just isn't as powerful as a few other characters can be proven to be.

With properly upgraded Graf Eisen and Laevatein maybe. But their AEC-Equipements don't have the resillence required to withstand Quinn's attacks. Both are also ignorant of how Quinn's attacks work which culd make them victims of grievous harm at the beginning of the fight.

Not really. Being able to break AEC Equipment doesn't mean she would be able to break any and everyone's.

The only thing that bolqued Quinn's attack besides an EC-Driver was Caro's fortress shield which got promtly destroyed for it's troubles xDU

Caro is surely as powerful as Vita and Signum, lol.

Nothing against Arf, cause i think she's awesome. But Subaru is probably more powerfull than her on the overall scale ...saves for the lack of flight powers. Suabru have short range but incredible destructive power. Her Divine Buster attack is a very powerrfull antipersonel attack and her attacks enhaced with her I.S. "Oscillating Breaker" become devastating to anything they touch.

Arf's feat is more impressive (The Garden of Time is huge, Arthra has been estimated to be more than a kilometer in size) than anything that can be scaled to Subaru in StrikerS before becoming an AA rank mage, she's possibly stronger than Arf currently but that's pretty impossible to know for sure. Not that I'm saying Arf's stronger.

As i've said all the spells you've mentioned are utterly useless against any EC Driver by their mere nature as "spells" xDU Eclipse power don't block magical attacks, it nullyfies them, regardless of how powerfull those are.

I'm aware, which is why they can't be said to be able to take the damage those attacks can give out because they nullify them due to their nature ...

If you want to comment about Hayate's Heimdall, the attack was only effective because Hayate was using magic to gather physical mass and achieve a physical effect. Most Nanoha's attacks lacks such property, the only cannon attack of that nature she have is Stadust Fall which isn't very powerfull and cannot be performed while fighting Tohma over the ocean anyway xDU

Uh, what? Nanoha's attacks can generate physical damage (physical damage is done with magic by moving the molecules that make up the target - magic can kill, clearly), it's just that Eclipse Driver nullify by breaking the bonds of magic. AEC Equipment just instantly coverts the magical energy into physical effects, so they can't do that. My point was you can't compare the attacks she dealt to Thoma to her more powerful attacks without reason.

Tohma do probably had been destroyed Subaru at the end but at the moment she still had better fighting chances against him than Nanoha or Vita.

Huh? Subaru did have better fighting chances than a Nanoha without anti eclipse weaponry and a knocked out Vita, yeah. Nothing suggests she could keep up with Thoma, especially breaking his device with an ability fine-tuned to do just that.

Most characters who break steel do it aided by magic or other enhacing effect, character like Devile and Subaru can do that with raw physical strenght. I really doubt Vita could punch trough steel, much less Nanoha or Fate.

You are aware everyone's strength is augmented by a type of energy when you say "raw physical strength", right? Subaru can not be proven to be as powerful as the other members.

Heh, when Curren appears, butts are kicked, no questions xD

More than likely.