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Kaijo · 2013-02-24, 21:22

I think we are somewhat on the same page here, and for what it is worth, I am not saying to stop research on hydrogen. Just that electric cars are ready *now* and offer a HUGE benefit over gas vehicles. Considering the polluting and oil nature of gas vehicles, let's do what we can to get them off the road now. Exchange the huge polluting vehicle for something MUCH less polluting. Maybe, in the future, if Hydrogen works out, we can do something with it. But not right now.

Although, I think there might be a minor misunderstanding here. You seem to be operating under the assumption that you will just pour water into your car to have it go. That's not how a hydrogen car would function. Instead, you would have to put pure hydrogen into your car, which would then combine it with oxygen from the air to create water (or water vapor). It takes energy to crack HO2 apart into hydrogen and oxygen, but you get energy by recombining the two. So, even in a hydrogen car, you are using hydrogen to create electricity, and the electricity to run the car. Whereas an electric car cuts out the middle step and just focuses on electricity.

Hydrogen is essentially more of an energy storage compound, like a battery; not energy generation. It takes energy to make hydrogen, and thus when you ultimately use it to power something, you're getting less energy from it than it took you to make it. That's the biggest issue with it.

I will say that hydrogen compares favorably as far as energy storage goes, compared to gasoline. The main problem is that it requires a MUCH heavier and bulkier tank to store the gas. A heavier car will require more energy to run, so this is something you have to keep in mind. The lighter you can make your car, the less energy it takes to move it. There have been some experiments with small marble-like pellets, but that is proving to be even heavier. The other main benefit is the ability to use gasoline as a fuel until a hydrogen infrastructure is in place. This is the major reason why the hydrogen car has any real traction, because the oil companies would rather people buy hydrogen cars then electric cars, so they can sell more oil. Thus, what you usually see pushed, are fuel cells which can do both gasoline and hydrogen.

I'd encourage you to read a book called "The Hype about Hydrogen". Despite the title, it is written by a "hydrogen realist" who knows what he is talking about. He knows the potential, but also knows that it has a looong way to go, currently. There are engineering problems we haven't been able to surmount. While he figures we eventually will, the fact remains that we have technology NOW which is just as good. Again, not saying to stop working on hydrogen, as a breakthrough could make it ideal. But electric cars work now, and so let's do that. I think you can agree to that much, since it does look like we mostly agree on things.

One other thing that isn't mentioned, is that an electric car is vastly cheaper to maintain, due to less moving parts (this is partly why GM helped kill their electric car, the EV1). The more you put into a car, the more it will cost to maintain it. Both an electric car and a hydrogen car will have batteries (and quite a few of them, as the benefits of regenerative braking are much too good to pass up). Hydrogen cars add more parts in the form of fuel cells, which means there are naturally more maintenance costs.

And lastly, about solar power... yes, that chart was about peak, but remember, we are talking about mostly deserts here. They get peak sun practically every day. Even if we assume they only get half of that peak on average, we can simply double the number of panels to get the energy we need, and it still takes up an incredibly small fraction of Earth's land area. I don't know what else to tell you, other than countries like Germany and China are going full bore on solar power now, to great benefit. It is a mature technology, and there are companies in the US which will install solar panels for you, that eventually pay for themselves after 3 to 10 years.

You say we need 50% panels, but that's not a good idea. Remember, the more energy they absorb, the more heat they build up. Too much energy, and they melt and become non-functional, unless you have some clever cooling options. I've seen a few; mainly one that rotated a kind of "tree" of panels slowly, thus giving the panels not facing the sun, time to cool down a bit. But that required energy. 20-30% is pretty much idea, because then they don't get warm enough to fail. In most areas, they can radiate enough of the heat to keep functioning.

If you want to know how far solar panels have come, recognize that we can keep a solar powered aircraft aloft indefinitely! NASA's Pathfinder project(nonpiloted drone) demonstrated that you could keep a solar-powered aircraft aloft even during the night, and I'd keep an eye on the Solar Impulse project. It's actually piloted, and has already made a 24 hour trip. The next goal is to circumvent the globe in 20-25 days (in 3-4 day hops to change pilots), but eventually have a full, around the world trip with a later two-seater.

And the solar powered car you want is practically here. Only, instead of taking the solar panels with you (which add extra weight and thus increase energy expenditure), you simply stop at places with solar powered charging. From that point of view, it makes little sense to carry solar panels with you. In 10-15 years, every metropolitan and suburb will have solar paneled charging areas. Business centers will have them. Parking garages will have them. Restaurants and shopping malls. In fact, I usually see the charging spots closest to the door at places like Walmart or near the elevator in parking garages. So not only are you getting a free charge, but you get the closest parking spots, too!

Honestly, the only two reasons why I don't get an electric car now(if I needed a new car now, it would be a Volt), one of which is partly because I want to get more use out of my current car. But the other main reason is I am on the second floor in a condo complex. There are no charging stations here yet (though I've seen quite a few around in my suburb and in Seattle). I'd like to be able to plug in at night, which I can't do yet. So, I'm hoping in 10 years I'll either move to some place that has charging stations, or convince my condo association to invest in some. Or somehow run a cable up to my condo, heh.

2013-02-24, 21:22	Link #343
Kaijo Banned Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.	I think we are somewhat on the same page here, and for what it is worth, I am not saying to stop research on hydrogen. Just that electric cars are ready now and offer a HUGE benefit over gas vehicles. Considering the polluting and oil nature of gas vehicles, let's do what we can to get them off the road now. Exchange the huge polluting vehicle for something MUCH less polluting. Maybe, in the future, if Hydrogen works out, we can do something with it. But not right now. Although, I think there might be a minor misunderstanding here. You seem to be operating under the assumption that you will just pour water into your car to have it go. That's not how a hydrogen car would function. Instead, you would have to put pure hydrogen into your car, which would then combine it with oxygen from the air to create water (or water vapor). It takes energy to crack HO2 apart into hydrogen and oxygen, but you get energy by recombining the two. So, even in a hydrogen car, you are using hydrogen to create electricity, and the electricity to run the car. Whereas an electric car cuts out the middle step and just focuses on electricity. Hydrogen is essentially more of an energy storage compound, like a battery; not energy generation. It takes energy to make hydrogen, and thus when you ultimately use it to power something, you're getting less energy from it than it took you to make it. That's the biggest issue with it. I will say that hydrogen compares favorably as far as energy storage goes, compared to gasoline. The main problem is that it requires a MUCH heavier and bulkier tank to store the gas. A heavier car will require more energy to run, so this is something you have to keep in mind. The lighter you can make your car, the less energy it takes to move it. There have been some experiments with small marble-like pellets, but that is proving to be even heavier. The other main benefit is the ability to use gasoline as a fuel until a hydrogen infrastructure is in place. This is the major reason why the hydrogen car has any real traction, because the oil companies would rather people buy hydrogen cars then electric cars, so they can sell more oil. Thus, what you usually see pushed, are fuel cells which can do both gasoline and hydrogen. I'd encourage you to read a book called "The Hype about Hydrogen". Despite the title, it is written by a "hydrogen realist" who knows what he is talking about. He knows the potential, but also knows that it has a looong way to go, currently. There are engineering problems we haven't been able to surmount. While he figures we eventually will, the fact remains that we have technology NOW which is just as good. Again, not saying to stop working on hydrogen, as a breakthrough could make it ideal. But electric cars work now, and so let's do that. I think you can agree to that much, since it does look like we mostly agree on things. One other thing that isn't mentioned, is that an electric car is vastly cheaper to maintain, due to less moving parts (this is partly why GM helped kill their electric car, the EV1). The more you put into a car, the more it will cost to maintain it. Both an electric car and a hydrogen car will have batteries (and quite a few of them, as the benefits of regenerative braking are much too good to pass up). Hydrogen cars add more parts in the form of fuel cells, which means there are naturally more maintenance costs. And lastly, about solar power... yes, that chart was about peak, but remember, we are talking about mostly deserts here. They get peak sun practically every day. Even if we assume they only get half of that peak on average, we can simply double the number of panels to get the energy we need, and it still takes up an incredibly small fraction of Earth's land area. I don't know what else to tell you, other than countries like Germany and China are going full bore on solar power now, to great benefit. It is a mature technology, and there are companies in the US which will install solar panels for you, that eventually pay for themselves after 3 to 10 years. You say we need 50% panels, but that's not a good idea. Remember, the more energy they absorb, the more heat they build up. Too much energy, and they melt and become non-functional, unless you have some clever cooling options. I've seen a few; mainly one that rotated a kind of "tree" of panels slowly, thus giving the panels not facing the sun, time to cool down a bit. But that required energy. 20-30% is pretty much idea, because then they don't get warm enough to fail. In most areas, they can radiate enough of the heat to keep functioning. If you want to know how far solar panels have come, recognize that we can keep a solar powered aircraft aloft indefinitely! NASA's Pathfinder project(nonpiloted drone) demonstrated that you could keep a solar-powered aircraft aloft even during the night, and I'd keep an eye on the Solar Impulse project. It's actually piloted, and has already made a 24 hour trip. The next goal is to circumvent the globe in 20-25 days (in 3-4 day hops to change pilots), but eventually have a full, around the world trip with a later two-seater. And the solar powered car you want is practically here. Only, instead of taking the solar panels with you (which add extra weight and thus increase energy expenditure), you simply stop at places with solar powered charging. From that point of view, it makes little sense to carry solar panels with you. In 10-15 years, every metropolitan and suburb will have solar paneled charging areas. Business centers will have them. Parking garages will have them. Restaurants and shopping malls. In fact, I usually see the charging spots closest to the door at places like Walmart or near the elevator in parking garages. So not only are you getting a free charge, but you get the closest parking spots, too! Honestly, the only two reasons why I don't get an electric car now(if I needed a new car now, it would be a Volt), one of which is partly because I want to get more use out of my current car. But the other main reason is I am on the second floor in a condo complex. There are no charging stations here yet (though I've seen quite a few around in my suburb and in Seattle). I'd like to be able to plug in at night, which I can't do yet. So, I'm hoping in 10 years I'll either move to some place that has charging stations, or convince my condo association to invest in some. Or somehow run a cable up to my condo, heh.