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cronnoponno · 2011-05-12, 18:05

Spoiler for Long text wall:

No, the rule that ''supernatural agencies cannot be employed as a detective technique'' is not what I'm talking about. It makes sense that it'd ruin a mystery if the detective can just ask a dead person who the culprit is.

What I'm saying is that the rules put laws into the world that have no real existence. The whole set of commandments is a supernatural force, going at work to hold back supernatural forces(and other things). Meaning, it lowers down the possibilities in a mystery. It doesn't ''solve'' the mystery, it removes insanely complicated (and stupid) things which technically makes it easier. If the detective ignores this, and/or doesn't know these forces are being played and still suspects a servant, it still affects the game board. Why is chess fake? Because there are rules placed on the armies. What's stopping the pawns from defecting? What's stopping infighting and betrayal? These rules.

It's like me writing a war story, and making up a set of rules that ''Disallow one man to destroy an entire base because it's absurd and would make the accomplishment stupid''. It ''could be possible'' for one man to do such a thing, but it would be highly improbable. In truth, it would probably also make the story suck. But in real life, it is possible. So in that world, it is an unknown supernatural force that is affecting the fate of the people in it.

What is it that you're trying to say exactly? The fact that supernatural rules are in a story, even if the character does not know it , does not mean it can be said that it is not containing supernatural things. There are plenty of Fantasies where the protagonist does not know he/she is in that world.

Even if the detective is unaware of it, and even if it is given a nice backstory to justify it and make it even more artistic, it doesn't change that it's ''supernatural rules blocking out supernatural things''. That can be a fantasy, not all Fantasy is based on swordcraft and dragons. In real life, detectives and people are not this noble.

And the whole ''Any Fantasy with elf stereotypes copies Tolken'' is a load of it, Elves can be dated back to legends and myths, does any mystery that has a detective copy any other mystery? Oh gee, they're just copying Sherlock Holmes. Also like I said, the expectations are different for the reader, which is why Fantasy doesn't ''need'' them entirely, but there are plenty of people who actively seek Fantasies with typical settings as such. I myself did not think that Elfs were awesome from Tolken.

And as far as I know....Mystery doesn't have ''rules'', or rather, the only reason it does is because a bunch of people acknowleged the list and it became ''truth'', there are plenty of mysteries that break the commandments and still have value. It is highly possible that these rules can be ignored without pissing off the reader, unless they were expecting these rules(which can be likened to Fantasy stereotypes) to be faithfully followed in the first place.

I'm just not understanding you here. What I'm seeing here is that Mystery and Fantasy have less differences than I thought. The only difference is that in Mystery, the game is to guess the mastermind and story before it reaches the final parts.

Maybe I'm confusing what you said here, the supernatural elements don't ''solve'' the mystery, but they are there and they certainly do affect it. Can you state where it was listed as a fact that Mystery does have rules? That the very definition of a mystery is that it follows these rules? Because my research is probably wrong, but Knox made his list in 1929, did Mysteries suddenly start there?

2011-05-12, 18:05	Link #22755
cronnoponno Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011	Spoiler for Long text wall: No, the rule that ''supernatural agencies cannot be employed as a detective technique'' is not what I'm talking about. It makes sense that it'd ruin a mystery if the detective can just ask a dead person who the culprit is. What I'm saying is that the rules put laws into the world that have no real existence. The whole set of commandments is a supernatural force, going at work to hold back supernatural forces(and other things). Meaning, it lowers down the possibilities in a mystery. It doesn't ''solve'' the mystery, it removes insanely complicated (and stupid) things which technically makes it easier. If the detective ignores this, and/or doesn't know these forces are being played and still suspects a servant, it still affects the game board. Why is chess fake? Because there are rules placed on the armies. What's stopping the pawns from defecting? What's stopping infighting and betrayal? These rules. It's like me writing a war story, and making up a set of rules that ''Disallow one man to destroy an entire base because it's absurd and would make the accomplishment stupid''. It ''could be possible'' for one man to do such a thing, but it would be highly improbable. In truth, it would probably also make the story suck. But in real life, it is possible. So in that world, it is an unknown supernatural force that is affecting the fate of the people in it. What is it that you're trying to say exactly? The fact that supernatural rules are in a story, even if the character does not know it , does not mean it can be said that it is not containing supernatural things. There are plenty of Fantasies where the protagonist does not know he/she is in that world. Even if the detective is unaware of it, and even if it is given a nice backstory to justify it and make it even more artistic, it doesn't change that it's ''supernatural rules blocking out supernatural things''. That can be a fantasy, not all Fantasy is based on swordcraft and dragons. In real life, detectives and people are not this noble. And the whole ''Any Fantasy with elf stereotypes copies Tolken'' is a load of it, Elves can be dated back to legends and myths, does any mystery that has a detective copy any other mystery? Oh gee, they're just copying Sherlock Holmes. Also like I said, the expectations are different for the reader, which is why Fantasy doesn't ''need'' them entirely, but there are plenty of people who actively seek Fantasies with typical settings as such. I myself did not think that Elfs were awesome from Tolken. And as far as I know....Mystery doesn't have ''rules'', or rather, the only reason it does is because a bunch of people acknowleged the list and it became ''truth'', there are plenty of mysteries that break the commandments and still have value. It is highly possible that these rules can be ignored without pissing off the reader, unless they were expecting these rules(which can be likened to Fantasy stereotypes) to be faithfully followed in the first place. I'm just not understanding you here. What I'm seeing here is that Mystery and Fantasy have less differences than I thought. The only difference is that in Mystery, the game is to guess the mastermind and story before it reaches the final parts. Maybe I'm confusing what you said here, the supernatural elements don't ''solve'' the mystery, but they are there and they certainly do affect it. Can you state where it was listed as a fact that Mystery does have rules? That the very definition of a mystery is that it follows these rules? Because my research is probably wrong, but Knox made his list in 1929, did Mysteries suddenly start there?