[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Haak

[SPOILER=" @ Znozzy"]

Yes but EA didn't get anything out of it. They wasted all that time on nothing and what's more Kusanagi went on to factor in EA's defeat in SEED. Ultimately the costs outweighed the positives. They didn't know that at the time but now in Destiny they'd know that. At least, that would be Orb's perspective.

see, the cost for the EA was people, and a few grunts (which seems to be made out of a unlimited plot-number none of us know) and the benefit was a Mass driver, which they really needed, and Azrael wanted to try the Druggies out, so in the end, his druggies got some combat experience, and well, thats about it. i'm not trying to argue with you that the aftermath was good for the EA, but the economy and such has never been brought up in Seed, except the energy crisis.

He thought it was incredibly unfortunate but he didn't regret the actual act.

of course he thought it was unfortunate, and it does make sense why he wouldnt regret it, since he didn't cause it.

Exactly. ZAFT didn't think it was worth going to war with Orb and I made that exact same point to monster regarding the EA:

See, thats where i think you are wrong, Zala/Rau's squad =/= the entire Zaft army, it is one squad, not the entire army. Even if Rau wished for a full-scale invasion of Zaft i highly doubt the high command would agree too it.

Most of what you said was irrelevant since it was referring to the actual incident when Archangel enters Orb's territory. I wasn't referring to that, and I don't think the fact that Orb deterred Athrun's ship in that incident is proof that Orb can deter the whole of ZAFT, nor did I ever make that point.

You said Orb detered Zaft when they clearly didn't in Destiny, and this entire conversation about Athrun's squad is regarding that incident that involved the AA, or what occurance are you refering to? because you are the one who said Orb detered Zaft back in Seed.

I'm talking about after the incident, where they did have the option of bringing the rest of ZAFT after getting pissed at Orb's obvious lie. As you pointed out, ZAFT would be stupid to do that just because Orb were hardlined for one ship, which perfectly illustrates that there's more to deterrence than just power and Orb knew ZAFT wouldn't bother since it just wasn't worth it.

They had the option of bringing the rest of Zaft? i must've missed it, could you refresh my memory and tell me what episode it is? (no pun intended)

If you look at the above point, you'll find that you just spent a good deal of time proving that what is "common sense" is actually relevant, despite all the obviously unrealistic qualities of mecha anime in general. In my opinion, it's jarring when characters or groups act completely devoid of logic and makes watching the rest of show difficult when the show is trying to hypocritically make characters sympathetic because of genuine emotions or conflicts grounded in reality.

Well, we have a excuse for that, it's called shitty writing trying to apply common sense to shitty writing doesnt make sense (Like Yuna's attitude jump, Cagalli's and Shinn's characters being turned into a trainwreck in Destiny

Destiny did not show us that Seirans had their own ideals that were equal in strength, both legally and culturally to Orb as Uzumi's. That's my issue.

And Uzumi's ideals were clearly presented as Orbs in SEED. I already brought this up with monster and even he couldn't deny it.

Yeah,but as i said in a earlier post, Seed Orb isn't the same Orb as Destiny (which we've clearly all seen) Due to the Seirans.

I'm afraid my point does still stand. Athrun is reasonable high in command to have a better grasp of what is good for ZAFT than someone like Yzak at the time of SEED.

No. Athrun is still a regular red coat with the same rank as Yzak, he might have more knowledge regarding what is happening in the high council (but then again, the relationship he and his father had suggests otherwise) But he holds no political power on his own. If anything, his wedding with Lacus was more a political one to please the public.

I don't really know what your beef is because honestly, I've felt I've been quite patient even if i've maybe been a little blunt. But I think you'll find that I have been non-hostile all throughout my debate with you so I'm struggling to understand why you're acting like this. I mean monster hasn't been perfect either but for him I can at least recognise that it was a gradual process and since I've been just as exasperated, I'm not willing to blame him for anything (and even then he's been nowhere near this hostile despite everything). You however, just straight up decided to act hostile almost right from the get go.

I don't have any beef, but you flat out ignore certain parts of the show and take your own opinion/speculation as fact while disregarding things that the actual show state, even when being reminded by other forum members, as for your warning, if you can't hold a forum discussion without actually reading through what other people post and check up if your facts are right, the problem lies with you, not me, if anything, feel more than welcome to point out if im wrong by posting said episode number and i'll be more than happy to correct myself.