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Old 2008-04-25, 17:01   Link #310
Sol Falling
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday View Post
-As far as I saw, Shirley never demonstrated openly to him that she disliked him gambling. We saw her make comments, but none to him that I recall.
-He didn't want to really remove her memories, but given the state she was in it was for her own good.
-But he did it anyway.
-She was going off to see Mao who is pretty much a psycho. I wouldn't have let her go either. Besides, what does that incident have to do with happiness?
-But he didn't appear to have any attempt to harm her. She would have probably been forced to leave and thus wouldn't have been an issue to worry about anymore.
I'd go on, but I don't really feel like it. Any of those points are arguable to some degree. Pretty much every act in some way contributed to the goal of either helping the plan for a peaceful world for Nunnally or keeping those he cared about out of danger.

Besides, who said that he was always an altruistic person since most of us admitted he wasn't completely like that at all. Euphemia is probably the only example of a completely altruistic person in this show.

All we're saying is that when it comes down to it in the end, Lelouch's happiness is second to those he cares about.

Of course pairing preferences go into ideas of when everything is over. He won't be going back to school though since everyone would have graduated by then. It would also be sort of a lame ending to win against a world empire and go back to being a simple student with an everyday life, which it seems bored Lelouch quite often with some fun times here and there.
Krimzon and Ashlay were arguing that Lelouch wouldn't pursue a romantic opportunity given the chance and circumstances, because he doesn't believe in forcing his emotions onto the people he cares about. Their claim was that Lelouch's altruism extended to such an extent that he would never actively pursue his own happiness.

Again, I will happily concede that Lelouch values the happiness of those who are close to him over his own. I have also happily conceded that Lelouch is a heavily self-sacrificial character. My position has only been that this altruism does not extend so far as to inhibit his ability to pursue his own happiness.

Anyway, on your points of contention (though this may be unnecessary, if you don't want to continue):
-On Shirley complaining about Lelouch gambling, here's episode 4:
Rivalz: Lelouch, what are you gonna do after this? Our classes are cancelled, so how about that thing we were asked about before...
Shirley: Don't gamble!
Rivalz: Don't say such strict things!
-Deciding things for people based on your idea of 'their own good' is a bit selfish, in my opinion. But yeah, I said I'd ignore this part anyway, so I guess you can think what you want.
-He didn't do it, he was basically tied up and bound during the cat festival, I can only imagine what they had to do to get him to go through with the gender change one. Lelouch would never participate in such activities willingly--his pride wouldn't allow it--and this is a clear demonstration of Lelouch choosing his pride over his friends' (though obviously in this case superficial, malicious, cruel and unusual) happiness, even if he doesn't have the power to enforce his decision.
-Lelouch's "Stay with me" was basically, to me, a vocalization of his desperation for some sort of a pillar of support, a confidant and companion, after he gave up his relationship with Shirley. He was lonely, and the only person who could accompany him on the path he had chosen was walking out of his life. Very much a selfish sentiment (and also very understandable), as with C.C.'s immortality and no knowledge of the psychopath Mao had become there wasn't any rational reason for him to fear that she was going to come to any serious harm.
-Lelouch had planned to ruin her reputation, her belief in herself, her trust in him, and most importantly of all her sincere, almost realized dream for the future. If that's not harming someone then I don't know what is.

So basically the first point is uncontestable, and there is (quite a bit of) room to argue for a selfish component in all the other examples. I'm not ignoring their context in the bigger picture of Lelouch's goals, I'm just saying that Lelouch clearly demonstrates some behaviour that indicates that he values his own pride, amusement, accomplishments, etc. over the thoughts of others. This selfish drive allows room for Lelouch to pursue his own happiness when the wellbeing of those he cares about is not in immediate jeopardy. Looking over your position, I don't think you'd disagree?
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