[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Haak

Yeah no kidding. The point is that it's out of character, not that it didn't happen. i don't know how many times I'm going to have to keep saying that...

You are saying it's out of character, i'm saying its not out of character since Orb had a change in leadership, official or not, Cagalli was not calling the shots when she wasnt there, the seirans was

Because they couldn't be sure that Cagalli was actually there. Remember what happened when Orb was being attacked by ZAFT and Yuna, in his desperation, acknowledged that she was Cagalli?

Of course, Yuna out of pure desperation (his country being attacked aswell) said it was the real Cagalli, not to mention he made a pure ass out of himself aswell, if you want a plot hole, the Akatsuki is a pretty big one aswell. The Seirans, or rather Yuna lost control of the situation aswell.

The fact that Cagalli was still the Chief representative shows quite clearly that the Seirans didn't officially have more power over her.

Yet they took charge earlier in the show when she was still in Orb during the Minerva vs Ea battle and the entire Wedding part, they had some kind of advantage over her, that is one of the big plotholes that doesnt add up.

That's not another subject. If there's no evidence to suggest they had their own motto and that it was just as powerful as Uzumi's then you can't prove that's the reason why the treaty happened. I have already made the point that just because the treaty happened, doesn't mean it's for the reasons you said it has. It could easily just be a plot hole, like I keep saying it is.

The treaty obviously happened against Cagalli's will, the Seirans clearly held the upper hand when it came to political power in the parliament/high council around those episodes.

Then you can't say the 180 degree turn makes any sense. When I said Orb is acting out of character, I meant the civilians too. There was no dissent when there clearly should've been.

We can't draw conclusions regarding the civilians feelings when Destiny didn't show us any Orb civilians interacting with eachother regarding the matter, let's agree to disagree when it comes to them. Since we've been shown nothing it's impossible to say if they acted out of character or not, since they have none.

I'm going to save you the embarrassment and let you off on that rather childish display...

like you put up in your earlier post? Get off the high horse, bring some facts instead of opinions.

So you can't deny I was making this point before then?

Already replied to that in my previous post, re-read it, your point held no weight nor substance since you had nothing to back it up with.

Nope, lets not. If we have enough material on civilians under Uzumi's rule and since there's no material on civilians under Seiran's rule, I can only conclude that's because there's been no change. Hence, it's out of character.

one can draw parallels to schrödinger's cat when it comes to the civilians, we don't know how the Seiran rule affected them at all, if it changed or not. as i said, i'm going to leave the civilians out of my next posts since we have no material to discuss their wellbeing or what happened to them during the EA alliance.

You've specifically made the point that the show hasn't told us anything...

about the civilians.

I swear to God I hope you're not suggesting I'm saying the treaty didn't happen again. Because you now I'm not...

..right?

when did i ever say that you denied the treaty existing? don't make things up.

You're contradicting yourself. Did Athrun mention ZAFT or not?

Yes he did. Athrun was clearly taking into account that ZAFT would have to get involved and "complete annihilation" wasn't the result he said was going to happen, hence why he never said it. Quite the opposite. And the way Athrun was portrayed as the more reasonable and down to earth character, clearly suggests that what he was saying could be taken as exposition.

Sorry, Zaft is their military, he meant a diplomatic matter for their nation (Plant). I had a name mixup there, my apologies.

The fact that Cagalli left, which is the actual reason why they assumed the Seirans were in charge? What about that change?

Cagalli didn't really leave on her own free will, seeing how her brother showed up in a mobile suit, kidnapped her and took her to the Arch Angel just to stop the wedding.

Well, one can assume this:
Officially, Cagalli was the chief representative, but the Seiran's had more power political power inside the parliament/high council, enough to force Cagalli into a arranged marriage of some sort, seeing how they already had enough power to make calls with the military around the time the Minerva left.

Just making those accusations won't make it true, which is pretty much what you were doing until you finally got your act together now.

Yet you still havent provided a single source to support your own claims, its time to get your own act together.

You may not actually remember, but the whole reason this debate in the first place started was because you were making claims about the Seirans I didn't believe was true because there was no evidence for it...

i've provided you sources from the show, you've provided your opinion, while you are entitled to your own opinion, you can't act like it's fact " just because " you feel it is.

No, that comment ought to make you realise that just saying my source is unreliable is not even remotely helpful when you have no better alternative to offer. Something that you, unfortunately, still haven't learnt.

Excuse me? as i've said in my previous posts, provide me with the episode number and/or time and i'll look it up to make sure your claim is correct, if it is, i stand corrected. i won't flat out deny things the show state unlike you. The show is always the best alternative. I've provided sources, you haven't.

Once again, get off your high horse, you havent provided a single source for any of your claims, yet you act like you are right about everything, it's time to stop being all talk and actually provide some sources from your own claims.

You never quoted the show regarding the NJC matter. If you did, then I apologise, but I don't recall you ever quoting the show regarding the supposed ban on NJCs.

Seeing how you havent provided any source for your claims, and the only source you've provided in your arguments is the wikia it's pretty safe to assume you are the one making wild fan speculations.