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Old 2012-08-27, 07:56   Link #30193
Patchwork Chimera
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Welcome to the discussion.
(No one uses Umineko spoiler tags here)

As I see it, what you are saying about Beatrice II doesn't contrast with Touya's situation at all, but rather mimics it. Touya couldn't be Battler, either. Right?
Thanks for the welcome And the tip. I wasn't realy sure how all this works, but is a relief not having to spoilertag everything.

No, what I'm saying is that Beatrice II is a precedent. It's like "okay, this might work, but in this place doesn't work that way". A recurrent topic, to say it someway.

Now I'll make a case of the power of a precedent:

Like how anbody can stop dead Dlanor's Knox Rules in EP5 the moment she utters them with a well placed 'Knox might not even apply in this story/situation/twilight' or even 'You're stating what Knox #X says, but not about what this case is about' and to nail it further 'You're not the game master and the existence/possibility of X can't be DENIED in red just because you won't allow it.'. All casually forget those blue stakes, because is implicit that they might work, but for the sake of plot nobody thinks of them. This is a precedent (in-story, fandom has used them more than enough times). If Knox was denied by that plothole, it would be pretty lame and then we wouldn't have the awesome red spam of DEATH.

Take another pick 'Someone pretending to be another for kicks makes a new person, even if that's not human'. That's a precedent. Hell, thats even a red RULE, how Kanon's been trolling us, how Ange was able to survive 1998 even if she was declared dead, and how ShannonxGeorge became worse when all that sappyness wasn't enough. Science would call that statement bullcrap: could be forgiven if it was a case of MPD, but is just some guy with serious denial issues! How's that gonna make a personality?

Those two situations are examples of the power of a precedent in-story. Invalidating a theory without outright shutting it in red. The blue stakes are invalid in the games through the power of denial, and calling nonsense that idiocy of "death of a character that isn't even a personality" is a forbidden move too, stated even with red.

So, to make a long story shorter, Beatrice II and EP7 line are a prcedent to say 'Nobody can even pretend to be other human - exceptions made of furniture, and they are limited to the human that created them'. With this rule, nobody can disguise themselves of other suspects, but Yasu can disguise as Beatrice. Others can't disguise themselves as Beatrice, because Beato is furniture and limited to hir creator.

Tohya wasn't Battler anymore, and he even aknowledged that he couldn't be him (more along the lines that "It terrified me, because I felt that it wasn't correct"), but at the end he was able to remember Mr. Batora, a human that became furniture when he killed himself to follow Beato, thus recognizing that "Tohya's body was a vessel of Battler long ago." Then he accepted Battle in that last scene and efectively 'resurrected' him (Aknowledging furniture).

Maybe Tohya will never be Battler again, but he was Battler some time before.

So Thoya = Battler is not a mimic, but acttualy an inversion of BeatriceII=/=Castiglioni. While BetyII couldn't be Castiglioni no matter how hard she tried to make Kinzo happy, Tohya couldn't stop being part Battler even if he tried to supress it; he didn't had his memories at the begining, the amnesia was temporal (for the plot's convenience) and when they returned, things got ugly because 18 dissosiated himself from Bato so hard he gave himself an attack.

Ikuko was not an evil brainwasher. She tried to make an amnesiac remember, and when that worked horribly well, she let Tohya be Tohya.

Last edited by Patchwork Chimera; 2012-08-27 at 08:30. Reason: Damn it! My english SUCKS so bad it should be considered a logic error >_<U
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