[Qilin]

Originally Posted by Coldlight

It seems that is the case. Just as it is here, there is an ongoing "war of words" in many other places regarding the nature of language. I think the first part (before the W3C section) of this blog post best describes the two sides without being overly biased. Our dispute over the usage of "shounen" in English is just one of the many language usage skirmishes being fought in other places. Ironically, "shounen" hasn't even been accepted as an English term yet and we are here disputing over how it should be used in English.

Yep. That's an apt way of defining our current disagreement.

I don't pay attention to statements as to "how language ought to be used". I don't believe in a metaphysical standard as to how language should be. I don't believe that language should be stagnant. And most of all, I don't believe in imposing your own language game onto anyone else's.

The development of language, for me, can be likened to natural selection, as outdated and obsolete words and meanings are discarded in favor of more appropriate ones relative to the given context.

Originally Posted by Tempester

There are already words which aptly describe the kind of manga that the ignorant English-speaking masses tend to relate shounen to. Examples would be "battle manga", "competitive manga", and "shounen battle manga". The paramount question for those who wish to change the meaning of "shounen" in English: what word do you propose to replace the original Japanese meaning which is a manga that is published in a shounen magazine?

If you've read my earlier posts, I never said that the word "shounen" was the most apt word for the purpose it was being put to. But in the end, consensus is the only thing that will matter. So in evaluating the alternatives you mentioned, are they even more widely used? Are more importantly, will they stand the test of time?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You might be surprised. I recall how some time ago there was a post up on this forum talking about how Japanese anime fans had translated many Anime Suki posts into Japanese in order to talk about what we were saying.

I'm also pretty sure there's some Japanese anime fans on this site who are more or less fluent in both English and Japanese.

They're the minority, meaning that they hold very little sway on how terms are used. Saying that the two communities have very few opportunities to interact is not the same as saying they have none. Whether or not there are users here who can understand Japanese, the fact remains that they aren't enough to make the two communities homogenous. And as I said, standardization is simply a natural consequence of homogeneity.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

depends on the circumstances. If you're taking a word from a language that's not used a whole lot any more in everyday conversation (Latin, say) and indigenizing its meaning, that's one thing. But if you're taking a word from a language that's still widely in use in certain parts of the world, then how that word is used by speakers of that language is what's most important, imo. That's what I mean by "respecting how they choose to use it".

We English-speakers don't take "déjà vu" from the French and do whatever we want with it. That's because the French language is still alive and well and using "déjà vu" itself. So English-speakers understand "déjà vu" the same way the French do.

Speak for yourself. English isn't the only language in the world.

I can name at least one currently used language that adopts words from English, Spanish, Japanese, and Chinese while indigenizing the meanings for the culture's context.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You sure about that? Coldlight, Vexx, totoum, Tempester, and I all seem to be disagreeing with you here.

I don't see a lot of people agreeing with you on the idea that we can basically just disregard what the term "shounen" means to the Japanese people themselves.

Well, if that was true then this argument would be meaningless.

One of the main assumptions I made in my arguments is that the use of the term, "shounen", as a genre is widely practiced within the English-speaking anime community. If you can indeed confirm that such is not the case, then I don't mind folding.

Or maybe you're saying the opposing opinions expressed so far are somehow representative of the entire English-speaking anime community?