[qno2]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

This contradicts the images of her given in Bern's EP7 Tea Party, and her EP8 game. I'm willing to claim that the images of Ep4 represents a form of their actions: Shannon and Kanon personalities were fighting for control against Beatrice, Krauss may have fought against Yasu physically even... but Kyrie and Nanjo? They ran and hid.

EP4 has way too many unknown variables anyway. Sure, Kanon was the 9th victim and the first of Kyrie's group - it does tell us a bit about the order, but to find the one "logic" that makes sense out of everything...

Though it is possible that Kyrie was the first actual human of the group to die: after making the phone call - as per Yasu's instrcution - she's shot... considering your points: Krauss witnessed this, tried to talk some sense into Yasu. However he does not succeed and starts running towards the back door, *bang* another one down. Don't know where exactly his body was placed, if he was actually turned as if running inside he might've run into Nanjo who came to check what is going on.

Forced? Well... it's EP4, not a whole lot we can do here.

Nanjo being reduced to running away is quite fitting for him actually. After seeing all that he'd better get the F out.

First twilight? ... well, if Kanon is the ninth it must've happened already. So what happened there exactly? How did she get Kyrie and Krauss (it'd be so much easier with Rudolf instead) to play along? Good question.

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

Even what she tells Jessica about "killing Asumu," fits this. She was "prepared to take Asumu's life herself." so that when Asumu did die do to circumstances beyond Kyrie's control, Kyrie still says that she did it herself.. But that's just the thing: Kyrie did not kill Asumu, and this will not change regardless of what Kyrie claim.

I think Kyrie is just a sham, and is not as mentally prepared to carry out a mass murder as shown in Ep7 and 8.

Possible. In the end, EP8 itself said that the Kyrie (or Rudolf's family) culprit theory doesn't make more sense than the others.
Similiar to how George is probably not mentally prepared to kill everyone for Shannon, despite what a magic scene said.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

- The locked/unlocked status of a room is almost never checked by the detective, in most cases it isn't checked at all and everyone just assumes them to be locked simply because their owners have the habit of locking them.

Definitely. It's amusing how much they talk about keys without checking this first, blasted unreliable narrator!

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

George accomplice:
What applies to Rosa in game two applies to him as well, during several murders he was within eyereach of battler thus not able to commit any crime.

It's quite obvious to me that George was only added for EP3. Even Natsuhi's locked room... you could, with Rosa as the culprit, still claim that we don't have Battler's point of view for what Rosa was doing the entire time. Maybe Rosa threatened him and whatnot, went to the "toilet", etc. without Battler saying anything.

He got threatened and is no longer reliable or at least conveniently hiding part of his knowledge. There is no red that Rosa never left the parlor in this timeframe (I know I know, dumb and cheap argument, don't tell me ). Therefore, Rosa, who has the master keys, could've killed them; George is not necessary.

So... everything could be done with Rosa in KNM's theory (albeit some ... well, Shkanon has its own weird explanations sometimes, let's just not talk any more about this aspect), though EP4 is even harder and weirder to make sense out of. Except for EP3. But KNM wanted Rosa to be the culprit, what a quandery!
It is a common rule in science that the more you have to change and adapt aspects of your theory, the more special cases exist, the more its credibility has to be doubted. Same here.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

then there is another rule one must not overlook:
There are no accomplices. There is but one killer and he did it all alone.

That's new - is it one of Van Dines rules? Those don't necessarily apply. And do you mean "accomplices in murder" or "accomplices in protecting the murderer"? Because Shkanon certainly has a few of the latter that probably know what's going on, plus one of the siblings as helper (EP1: Eva, EP2: Rosa, EP3: Krauss?, EP4: Kyrie, Krauss, probably more), the "accomplice that's doesn't know anything". And depending on whether you think that Yasu claimed to prepare a mystery game even more, namely nearly everyone. In fact, if you follow http://goatsreadingseacats.tumblr.com/ you'll notice that Genji was hanging out with Yasu the entire time, providing a steady alibi.

And there could be multiple murderers, at least for EP3... Will even implies in EP3 that Eva might've actually killed Natsuhi and Krauss ("the obvious culprit wields a mutable blade", which was clearly her role in that episode). At least I can't remember a rule that there can't be more.



There is an interview where Ryukishi claims that if you do not understand a certain action by Beatrice, you do not understand the story. With Shkanon it's not hard to understand, but I couldn't make the logic work with Rosatrice (and how KNM explained the love duel). Sure, in theory I can accept the notion that Ryukishi might be lying to protect those that found the answer, but to say "if you don't understand this, you don't understand the story" is a mighty strong statement to still lie about.


Well, in general I don't have anything against them or anyone just proposing different and new theories for fun. I personally enjoy trying to make Kyrietrice work (then again, getting her out of the chapel in EP2 was the biggest problem anyway and with loads of assumptions it's possible to twist the red).


Since I'm already posting... I feel bad for bringing up this topic. I'm sorry. So sorry, please don't hit me. Everyone here has to bang their head against this issue at least once, right? Just ignore me.

Spoiler for Protect your sanity, it's EP5 parlor-time:

So what did we have? Erika just not bothering? Us not seeing her perspective but getting a recap from Lambda? Possible, sure. Ryukishi might've actually intended it like this and it was obviously not a mistake on his part.

But... those ideas are not dumb and cheap enough.

1. Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.
2. Besides her, the number of people on this island is exactly the same as it was in the previous games.
3. In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island.

a) It's possible that the second red hides something in Japanese that wasn't translated, so let's look at the semantics in this one a bit loosely. Did the original red only refer to the "people-counter" or did it actually say "the number of people"? Considering that EP4 claimed that there are "no more than 17", mayhaps "exactly the same" as the "counter" means that we already got one added to the bunch before Erika came into play. So... Kanon actually is a human. Because besides Erika, the COUNTER is now EXACTLY the same as the NUMBER of the COUNTER mentioned in EP4. So... this red could've turned "no more than" temporarily into "exactly".

Since I can't read Japanese (yet) it's impossible for me to tell. It's way too cheap to be a viable answer anyway.

b) Even cheaper and dumber. The 3rd red comes after the others about the number of people/humans on the island. Kanon was a "person" in the parlor at this time, together with Shanon, as Shkanon. "The number of people in this parlor NOW is EQUAL to the total number of people on this island" - he got his own body right here, after all the other red's about the number of humans. The truth of the future beats the truth of the past... (alright, you got me, I forced this one)

Kind of like KNMs explanation for the logic error, with Kanon slipping out in the interval between being confirmed as being in "the cousins room" and Erika physically attaching the duct tape (as he claims it happened). HA! EAT THIS KNM!

Sure, Kanon being his own human for just one game is, as an approach, bad enough... but most of the time those two stuck together anyway, maybe that was the tradeoff?

Finally I'm one of those that tried to find an answer to this weird episode... in vain.

So sorry. Let's just not discuss this and move on.