Now THIS is what i am talking about! this is the kind of discussion i like!
(i wrote the majority of my reply yesterday,but after writing for over an hour the electricity went out and i lost all i wrote >_<. you cant imagine how angry i was at the time and how agonizing it was to have to rethink/remember/rewrite every thing lol)
"What if it's the other way around? What if Beatrice is trying to kill Kinzo (She's trying to claim his soul and possessions, after all), and everything you just mentioned is his defenses in an attempt to make sure he lives to the end of the roulette and be one of the five who goes to the Golden Land?"
"What if their love was one-sided, and Kinzo tried to keep her trapped here with that mirror?"
"What if Kinzo is three-dimensional in a way you didn't consider, like my "Wants to have Beatrice to himself, caused her death and regrets it" suggestion?"
first,my theories are like pokemon,they evolve and gain new moves,so please keep the latest evolution phase in mind when discussing one of them
this theory in particular evolved many times and got fusion summioned with the"many beatrices"theory to form "the theory to rule them all",also known as"The Three Beatrices and Kinzo's Love For The First,Hatred of The Third,and"Dont Remember Please"Of The Third". This Fusion Summoned Monster Has an attack and defense power of 5000 and the ability to evolve every turn. i am quite proud of it
in all seriousness,your 1st sugestion doesnt work because,even among the last 5,who goes to the golden land is up to beatrice's whim. Natsuhi in episode 1 and Rosa in episode 2 both didnt go to the golden land despite being in the final 5. considering how current beatrice feels towards him,kinzo definitely wont go even if he survived until the end.
also,i have a few"bases"in this game. things that i fully believe and that help a lot in building my theories.
one of those bases is that kinzo is a genius.
thus,he wouldnt do worthless/dumb things. he is a master at both chess and human chess. he has been deciding his moves for many years and every move he makes is calculated and beneficial,even though,as genji and nanjo said,it might seem dumb to the lesser,uninformed,minds.
now let us be honest here. all this"imma lock you up for years until you love me" crap is for F grade movies. no one with a brain,let alone a genius like kinzo,believes that scenario would ever work. however,all the events and all the lines point towards Kinzo and "old Beatrice" having a true and shared love that somehow ended in tragedy,creating"human beatrice"and then"current beatrice". that would explain every single mystery and solve every problem including this one because if if kinzo is able to change"Current Beato"back into "old beato"then he truly gets the hollywood" Happily Ever After"ending
"What if her lover abandoned her with child, and Rosa's angry about that?"
too cliche,predictable,and dull. i reject this theory for the same reason i rejected the"it is all a dream"theory. because,even though it is my 1st time experiencing any of Ryukishi07's works,it is pretty clear how much of an incredible writer he is(and how bad he is at drawing lol. thank god for the PS3 patch XD). i have read tons of visual novels,but the only ones on this level of quality are Key's,Type-Moon's,and Grisaia. such a writer wont stoop so low as to reach for the most predictable and lame answer possible.
"I admit, I've never heard this theory before. It's pretty hilarious and interesting. Make sure to read the TIPS after you finish EP2 for the magical explanation on why they're Furniture."
...i have finished EP2 a while ago lol. where you writing these as you were reading?
Anyway,this is actually a theory that was proven correct,though i might have explained it badly at the time. when i said that phrase has to be taken literally i didnt mean"Kanon was a table and Shannon was a chair". i meant"this isnt just a phrase to appear humble. those arent humans. they were created by kinzo's magic just like how a carpenter creates furniture with his tools".
i even mentioned that in a post later on:
"glad to see that some of my old theories are being proven true,like this one:
"The servants'"i am furniture"talk is to be taken literally. they WERE literal furniture at some point who were turned to humans by Kinzo's/Beatrice's magic. Genji's talk about the"favor that Kinzo did to them and they will spend their whole life serving him as repayment for it" is also a reference to that."
after recent events there is no doubt that the servants were magically summoned and turned into humans by kinzo's magic. they are of the same fabric as beatrice's goat servants,only difference is beato's servants are corrupted just like she is,while kinzo's arent."
"Hm, what proof is there that Beatrice has done magic?"
Refer to this post for the answer please
"any reader who finished both episodes and still denies the existence of beatrice the witch(NOT weather or not she was responsible for the killings,but her existence in the first place)is,imo,kidding themselves. even from episode one that much was obvious. otherwise how would battler see the dead and talk to them?how would he see the witch and talk to her?how do you explain berncastel?going into episode two,the simple fact that battler is rewinding the events,being inside them again,breathing again,talking with beatrice about them,etc.denying that beatrice was directly/indirectly responsible for some/most/all of the killings isnt impossible,but denying her entire existence is."
"Yea, they're canon. Battler and Beatrice are in a higher layer of reality watching the timeloop happen.
As for, Kanon, well, "Hey FFTHEWINNER, I saw a unicorn today. What do you mean that's not proof? I'm telling you I saw one!""
yeah. this was confirmed to me soon after i originally posted the topic
and i see your point. battler would never believe kanon if he told him. still,why didnt battler be like"hey guys...you kinda died. how the f*** are you talking to me?and how did you die?and where are we?and WTF is going on?"
"This is a very interesting observation."
yeah. this was one of the ingredients of the aforementioned fusion summon
"Pfft, yea. It's a shame that Kyrie doesn't get to be more of an intellectual badass in these early episodes, but I guess she'd be too powerful an ally to Battler. ^_^"
pretty sure she wouldnt be that helpful to battler either way lol,considering that she dies immediately after this scene XD
"Very interesting. Remember also, that Beatrice also wants to 'revive' in order to regain her full Witch powers, as if she's some sort of ghost. Perhaps being dead and limited in power has warped her? Like how if you're trapped in some place without any of the comforts you're used to, you start to resent and hate everything there?
Imagine you could go anywhere, and do anything, and you're stuck on a stupid little island where no one can see you or hear you, and you don't even get to see even 20 people. I'd go stir-crazy."
she was indeed a ghost,as we see in the beginning of episode 2. however,i dont think that suggestion is correct. Beatrice is an"Endless Witch". she has already lived for over a thousend years. for someone like her,waiting and planning for a couple of decades is absoloutely nothing
"Because they're playing a game, and if Battler doubts it, they'll just play "Nuh uh," "Yea huh" over and over again. As for how Battler knows it's red...he can see the text. He's sort of outside the normal story, after all XD
But yes, you can take for granted that all Red Truth is actually true. Beatrice wants to win with style, so she won't cheat."
as i mentioned in that quote,i was later convinced by the points another guy made,so no objections on the truth of the red text now. as for how we see it,i highly disagree with you,but i was showed in the original thread how the anime does it,and i can accept that method.
"Very interesting. I think you're the first person I've seen to have these thoughts about Nanjo by episode 2.
Wow, this is really fascinating to read from someone only on Episode 3. The parts of this in the right direction usually takes people a bit longer."
i think this is a good place to post some more of my thoughts about the old discussions i read. i didnt include those in my original post for fear that someone would misunderstand and get offended,which isnt my intention at all. just things that i thought of while reading the discussions
-the majority of my theories,especially the big ones,were not thought of at all in the discussions,even though there was like 50 pages filled to the brim with theories. this surprised me,since i expected most of them to have been discussed to death. guess that,for better or for worse,my brain goes in different directions than the brains of most players lol.
-while a lot of the theories were very interesting and thought provoking even though i disagreed with them,some theories,not all or the majority by any means but some,i found to be weird,with people going out of their way into"ridiculous"territory just to prove the complete absence of any kind of magic(like the one guy who said George killed all the adults in EP2,including his parents,simply because they wouldnt agree to his marriage with shannon. yeah right >_>.or the other guy whose theory depended on everyone and their mother in the entire chapter 2 being either a murderer or an accomplice.guess he liked rosa's way of thinking too much lol). i found it interesting how far they went to deny magic when,imo,magic and mystery can easily co-exist.
again,no offense intended,and i am sure many of my theories would have seemed dumb to many people back then too. just wanted to share my thoughts
"For what it's worth, Beatrice admits she holds to the No Secret Passages rule, so she atleast respects some of Knox's Commandments.
As for why "Kanon" let some people survive...well, Beatrice is trying to get Battler to believe she exists, right? What better than stammering witnesses descrbing something impossible?"
fair points
"Remember, after EP1, there's two Battlers now. The one on the island, and the one talking to Beatrice. It was the one on the island Beatrice fed to her goats."
even if we discard battler there is still a ton of evidence that this is a shared hallucination.
first,battler wasnt the only character"revived".eva and krauss were endlessly killed and revived as well.
second,that obviously isnt maria because maria would never act like that. maria believes that beatrice is a benevolent witch that will make her happy forever with her beloved mother and father in the golden land. that maria would never act/say what this"maria"said. you could argue that this could have been a "fake maria"like"fake kanon",but her interaction with battler at the end+her normal-not red-eyes mean that isnt the case.
third,that isnt kinzo. kinzo the incredibly dignified person would never act so undignified like that one did,and kinzo the genius would not die like a chump like that.
that actually also explains a ? i had when i saw this part:
"The ending sure confused me lol. it seems to delete my "Kinzo vs current beatrice"theory,but that theory has too much evidence behind it for me to simply give up on it. there must be some missing links that we still havent been told yet. maybe Kinzo is waiting for a chance to do something?maybe he has a plan?not sure."
well,the answer is that everything after beatrice won in episode 2,with the possible exception of the chess scene,was a hallicination inflicted on battler by beareice's butterflies
"Remember, the game isn't to worry about stuff like Bernkastel, or Battler's other world where he sees dead people, and Beatrice. This is a story device that's on the other side of the 4th Wall, kind of.
Our game is to worry if magic exists on Rokkenjima island, being used to kill people. Think of the Rokkenjima mysteries as the story, and Battler's and Beatrice's game world is like an internet discussion on this story they're reading."
sorry but you are contradicting yourself. you just said the tea parties are canon. being canon means they can be used to solve the game just like all other scenes. you cant say"this bit of them is canon but this bit isnt". they are canon,and their simple existence proves beatrice's magic. the simple fact that we have a game at all proves beatrice's magic. unless you can explain using human methods how battler is seeing the dead and how he can go back in time,to the extreme past even.
the game between battler and beatrice is about who did the murders. beatrice wins if battler admits with all his heart that the murders could only happen using beatrice's magic. battler wins if he can prove that all of the murders could have been commited by a human. those are the winning conditions,which means that the essence of the game is"could a human commit these crimes or not",not"is beatrice a witch or not",despite fake claims otherwise.
"A few things, to jostle your thinking.
1) What if Rosa, or Genji, or whoever, is the person working with Beatrice?
2) The 'Game' ends at October 6th, Midnight. After that, Beatrice's magic consumes the island. Can Battler believe anything he sees after the 'Gameplay' is over for that round?"
1)let us look at the list of people in episode 2 who saw magic and lived after that scene:
-Shannon(many Times)
-Kanon(many times)
-Rosa(2 times)
-Maria
-Gohda
-Genji(2 times)
-Battler
-Kinzo
that is 8 people,6 of which saw it before the 9th twilight,and 4 of which saw it multiple times,including shannon. pretty sure not all of them were beatrice's murder accomplices lol.
2)your question implies that you accept that beatrice is a witch who can cast magic,so you are contradicting yourself my friend
"Yea, Natsuhi is a great character. No spoilers, but you'll love EP5. It's basically Natsuhi's spotlight episode.
As for the letter, what people mean is, what else could it have said? For example, "Lol hey Natsuhi I know where the gold is, beat me in a duel and it's yours" or "Hey Natsuhi, here's some hurtful secrets you never told anyone. Come fight me.""
glad to hear that!(on a side note,are episodes 5-8 the same as episodes 1-4 but with the answers to the mysteries explained?or are they whole new mysteries with different order of deaths and whatnot like episodes 1-4?)
actually,the majority of the discussions that i read acted like there was no clue whatsoever to the contents of the letter.
as for your questions. there is no need for it to say anything else. anyone who knows how proud of the ushiromya name natsuhi is,how responsible she is,and that she is now the only adult that has the ushiromya name knows that the claim,like natsuhi said,that beatrice(the mass murderer in nastuhi's eyes) is the successor to the ushiromya name,and that she is challenging natsuhi to a duel to prove/determine that right is more than enough for natsuhi,let alone the extreme anger and hate she feels towards beatrice for killing her husband(krauss),her idol(kinzo),and all the rest. no reason or need to add unnecessary theories when what we have is more than enough.
"It IS interesting that Witches aren't considered humans, huh? But if magic turns you itno an evil demon like that, what about the former, silver-haired Beatrice in the flashback, who was so kind?"
i actually said"black magic"not just magic,like"white,good,magic"(Previous beatrice,gandalf,etc)and"black,evil,magic"(current beatrice).
however,even when i said that i didnt fully believe it,as worlds that have two kinds of magic normally make it clear that there are differing kinds with different consequences,and i didnt get that feel here at all. it was just a way to try to explain the transition,and we now know why that transition happened,so no need for this one any longer.
(was mostly right about the grave part though
"I like it the way it is, personally. Although EP8 has SOME choices, and there's fan-made episodes, one of which is a Choose your own adventure where you decide everything like in a text adventure game."
interesting will make sure to check those episodes out when i finish the official game
speaking of which,i read on wiki that,in addition to the 8 official eisodes,there are two compilation discs of stuff written by ruikishi07 about umineko. are those two translated as well?would like to read them when i finish
"Eh, I wouldn't conclude any of that. Beatrice likes to be vague in order to screw with Battler, and there could be other islands named Rokkenjima. :P"
that would be the case had battler noticed the"this rokkenjima"part. however,it is pretty clear that the"screwing with him"part was the statement its self about how there isnt more than 18 after she kept acting like she couldnt say that line. considering how shocking that was to battler,i am sure he wouldnt notice the"this"part lol. more than an island with the name sounds like a coup out. that would be a pretty lame way,so i dont think that is the case like i stated at the beginning.
"Basically, it's like an RPG. He's roleplaying as a version of himself that doesn't know what's happening, and he can put thoughts and ideas in his head, but he can't 'break character', and if he wants he can let his Piece work on auto-pilot."
funnily enough,i got two similar replies about this in the same day,although in the other topic they likened it to stage play. let me copy my reply to that
",the problem with this analogy is this:in plays,the"Actors"are safe and sound. they know that no one actually dies. that what they are doing is completely fake. Here,it isnt fake. people are dying for real. battler isnt an actor who goes for a drink with his friends after they were killed. he is seeing his REAL friends and family getting REALLY murdered in brutal ways over and over again. it is the stuff of nightmares.in order to the"actor"analogy to work,there needs to not be real people actually dying. here,every single "character"in every single timeline is real. he has a consciousness,a brain,and a soul. my point was that,when the"Timezone1 Battler"plants his piece in"timezone2/3/etc",what happens to the original"Timezone2/3/etc"battlers?"
"The place Battler and Beatrice play their game is certainly seems like it could be this higher dimension magical version of the Hidden Mansion (Kuwadorian), but I don't think its the same place. Remember terms like the 'endless' fence could very well just be descriptive text of Rosa's sense of wonder."
-as we concluded before,this hidden mansion is certainly not(insert name here),and it is quite excessive to buil two hidden mansions on an island lol.
-like i said,you dont"suddenly"see a HUGE fence and MANSION right in front of you. rosa even said that the mansion is just a littler bit smaller than their's,which means that it is still pretty big.
-in every single story i read,when a similar situation happens it is always said that they reached the gate but it was closed. not here.
so it is possible,but i doubt it.
"For the sake of simplicity, Umineko treats "any human who's gained magical powers, even if they lost their humanity" as a 'Witch' for the sake of the arguments. No need to worry about word games like "Beatrice is a Demon, neener neener."
Still, remember that it's not a game if Battler can't win..."
good. just wanted to not be trolled in the future by word games lol.
and battler cretainly can win. like i said,he simply needs to prove that all crimes COULD have been done by a human in order to win
"So, I'll say that EP3 is basically the Eva episode, but PLEASE don't skip any of her scenes or anything. She's really, really important to the story, and your opinion of her is going to change in a lot of ways. She hasn't stepped into the spotlight yet.
As for why she placed the paper before any murders...she was clearly suspicious of something. You'll learn more about this later."
i highly,highly,HIGHLY foubt that my opinion of eva is going to change,but we will see i guess.and i am already shuddering in fear at your annoucement. will try to not skip her,but no promices lol XD
as for the 2nd point,please dont state information that i havent yet learned as facts in your replies,as that is a spoiler. i dont mind you using future info,but please:
-make it a possibility not a statement. for example,here you could say"maybe she was suspicious of something?remember that something made rudolf afraid that he might die. maybe that same thing made her suspicious?" That way i would take it as a suggestion made because of events i know,not a spoiler
-also,i dont know if you are doing that already or not,but i would prefer that,in additions to suggesting correct theries,that you argue also for theories that,in hind sight you know is false,but at the time seemed plausable. that way,i would have no clue weather any of your theories is one of the true ones or one of the false ones,and thus be 100% protected against concluding spoilers from anything you say
"Kyrie gets some development in EP3, but she gets most of it in EP4. All the moms pretty much get spotlight."
glad to hear that
"I don't think it was hatred that made that scene with Battler the way it is. He seemed, nervous, or anxious, or a bit too shy to say anything to him.
Remember that Kanon, of all the 'furniture', sees himself as the least human, and has no right to act like he is."
seemed to me like,not knowing battler,he assumed him to be a cruel master like the ones he already has,and misinterpreted his act of kindness as mockery.
"To be fair, consider what Beatrice offered her in return, and remember that Beatrice spent MONTHS getting on Shannon's good side and tricking her into thinking she was kind."
...no she didnt. from the very first meeting beatrice showed her true face by mocking and insulting shannon relentlessly to force her to do what she wanted. i also iirc that first meeting was only a couple of days before shannon broke the mirror,according to her inner dialogue in that scene. could be wrong on this point though.
"Sorry for the long response post, but I really loved reading your thoughts as you go along! Please keep going! "
i actually far prefer long replies to short ones lol,as it makes me feel that i didnt write that mountain of words for nothing XD. will continue posting here for sure as long as there is fun discussion to be had
SP:Forgot to add this thought originally:
"The human Beatrice was a"Vessel/container"for the real beatrice. however,she still had her own mind/feelings/way of thinking/etc,so she was far from a perfect replica,which is why she was struggling with her identity and thinking"am i just a simple,worthless vessel,just like a bottle of water?or am i an actual human with my own thoughts and believes?"
also,a few important ?s :
--we dont know weather the baby the soul was moved to was a real baby or not. if it was,then it should have a soul of its own in addition to beatrice's. that would also mean that the"current beatrice's appearance"is not the same as it was back before all this(we never see beatrice's face in her flashback)but is the appearance of that human kid her soul was placed in.also,where did kinzo even get the child from? if it wasnt,then how come it grows naturally like a proper child would?"