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Old 2012-06-23, 09:55   Link #237
VezSketch
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Age: 27
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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Nanoha's hand was protected by a magical barrier which is what allowed her to safely catch Subaru's fist (and by the record i really doubt Subaru was attacking Nanoha seriously, she'll be like the last person in the world who would want to hurt her xDU).
She caught her first in her hand (you know, augmented strength) with ease, a simple barrier would not allow you to do that. There's no getting around that with your speculation, it's a fact.

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EC Drivers are very different, while they can enhace the power of their attacks their bodies are naturally enhaced so their raw physical strenght and resillence rises far beyond that of normal humans and other human-like beings (Fate, Wolkenritter, familiars). Nanoha was fighting Signum in a magical battle while using Raising Heart so her resillence and physical attacks are also magically enhaced.
Everyone has their strength augmented by energy and their devices .... No one's talking about "raw physical strength" other than you. If both Nanoha and Subaru were using NO MAGIC whatsoever, of course Subaru would be stronger - she's a damned cyborg.

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That's no excuse either, EC powered attacks are suppossed to pierce any conventional shield spell like the ones Agito cast.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Just because they have anti magic doesn't mean you can't defend from their bombardments.

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Cypha easily blasted her previously with an arguably less powerfull EC powered beam attack.
Or maybe Cypha's blast was stronger ... Occam's razor and all.

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It work different than your regular Round Shield or Panzerschild, so it's special.
No, simply because it differs from the MOST BASIC defensive spells doesn't make it special i.e. Nanoha's round shield can take far damage than Zafira's flimsy shield. "It works differently, therefore it's special", that's not even a logical argument.

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And? Subaru did arguably equal feats of strenght inside the craddle, in fact she demonstrated how powerfull she is by punching trough Craddle walls without any magic whatsoever because the AMF was at 100% depowering everyone, even powerhouses like Nanoha and Hayate.
If we were talking about them without magic, you would have a point. Bad news is we aren't, so you don't have a point. Subaru is stronger than a regular human without magic. That was never the argument, so stop mentioning it.

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About Vita and Graf Eisen, their limit break seems to be something they developed over the course of the years, and the attack she used against the book seems to be the strongest she had at the time.
I'm not talking about Gigantschlag itself - enlarging her device and swinging it is not Gigantschlag, she further enhances it with magic and thus that's the attack. She can make Graf Eisen that big without using Gigantschlag. I'm talking about the sheer size and kinetic energy her gigantform would hold at that size and being swung that fast. And her ability to lift and swing a hammer over a million tons with ease.

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In fact, it seemed to be even stronger than the one she used against the Cradle's engine, but she lacked space and was being affected by AMF at the time so i guess that was the reason why she didn't pulled off that.
Don't care if it seemed to be stronger, there's no proof it is. The fact that her device was being damaged is proof the attacks were stronger.

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We weren't talking about characters physical strenght then? If that the case then i'll give you mroe credit as Fate and other melee specialists have powerfull melee attacks. But that doesn't count as "physical strenght" because that only counts for the natural strenght of their bodies. I'm pretty sure Subaru can own nearly everyone in Section Six on arm wrestling or a non-magical fistfight xD
It kind of does count as physical strength, Vita isn't as strong as others in Force and she was able to lift over millions of tons with ease. Cypha destroy a mountain sized iceberg and turned it into bits with one slash. Subaru can't do that, meaning she'd lose in arm wrestling repeatedly. In a non-magical fist fight ...

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As i've mentioned Nanoha is a mere human, her physical strenght without magic is probably just slightly above average due to military training and good shape. Nothing impressive aside of that. At least Fate is an arguably enhaced clone that will justify some impressive physical feats.
No shit. Sorry, couldn't resist.

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Subaru's attacks only lack range in comparission with the top tier but, their destructive capacity is eaqual, if not stronger, than some of the attacks used by the top tier characters. Specially the ones performed whil in Cyborg mode.
Nope, they aren't. Going by feats and acceptable powerscaling, S1 Nanoha would kill Subaru with a single Divine Buster or two (two would be overkill and her DB shits on Subaru's). The same Divine Buster that went through Garden of Time (something estimated to be kilometers in size, the dust it generated and the hole indicates the volume both Thunder Smasher and Divine Buster went through was pulverized). It's an attack that's capable of destroying a city (the AOE variant of it also covered tens of kilometers when used, Fate was able to block Divine Buster in S1 and Nanoha took a strongest attack). And both Thunder Smasher and Divine Buster went through Garden of Time in a fraction of a second (making them several multiple times the minimum of hypersonic), being extremely fast. S1 Fate was able to dodge and react to Nanoha's DB with ease and was easier than dodging Nanoha herself. Subaru would get blitzed, too.

I'm also not pulling numbers out of my ass, if you wanted to know. I'm kind of downplaying. Only Subaru's strongest attack can be scaled from Arf's blast, it's the safest assumption and Subaru doesn't have any other options because she's relatively weak. Her Divine Buster is stronger than Nanoha's weakest attacks, yeah. Obviously. Nanoha and others are so beyond them in terms of feats it isn't even funny. There's like a giant discrepancy and it's probably why people loathe StrikerS so much.

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Just when they fight, normal Einhart doesn't seem to be as powerfull, a fact even Nove pointed out early in the series. She even was very impressed when she saw an untransformed Miura breaking a wooden pole with a kick without magic. Breaking wood with a kick is in fact a very impressive feat for a normal human being like Miura and Einhart and it was also actual lampshading of how monstruous Miura's melee attacks will become when enhaced by magic. So no, while it's true magic enhaces physical attacks that doesn't make it eaqual to acharacter's "physical strenght".
Uh, what's your point? No one's talking about breaking wood and I'm already aware of everything you just said. The more impressive things are done because their strength is augmented by magic, that was my entire point.

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Now you're contradicting yourself. You first said Nanoha and Fate are stronger than Subaru due to the latter's lack of feats. Then Rio pulled of a feat never achieved by anyone else and you immediately discredit her.
Firstly, I'm not contradicting myself. Secondly, Rio is a 10 year old girl, she is not as strong as Subaru and claiming otherwise would truly be idiotic. Thirdly, I've already mentioned physical feats far superior (Vita's hammer lift and swing, Cypha destroying a mountain sized iceberg, etc.) to Rio's that can be scaled to Nanoha, Fate, and others. If you're seriously debating a loli in Vivid is anywhere near as strong as even Subaru, I think we're done here.

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No one else in the series has shown been able to brake concrete and grab a giant chunk of it with their bare hands.
There's a thing called powerscaling - if a weaker character can accomplish it, a stronger character can do the same. Without powerscaling, everyone in StrikerS can pretty much only hope to destroy a steel wall with their attacks. Please tell me I don't have to explain something this simple.

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Subaru and Ginga doesn't need magic enhacements for strenght, in fact their equipement is mostly made to control their strenght rather than enhacing it.
Their devices enhance their magic, therefore enhancing their strength. Get out of here with that mess.
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I think it does, the Huckebein showed to be able to take down pwoerhouses like Signum with surprisingly ease.
With anti-magic .... ANY MAGE GETTING HIT BY CYPHA WOULD'VE BEEN TOAST. I have no idea what your problem with Signum is, but that's just common sense.

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The Divide Zero Eclipse knocked almost everyone in a two warship radius and everyone inside the ship ...except Cypha and Subaru. Cypha is a super-tough, eclipse driver and Subaru is a super tough type zero combat cyborg. Fate even suffered cardiac arrest.
.... That shit also had Hayate kneeling down on the ground. Subaru must be beastly ... Sorry, I thought we were just typing out non-sequiturs. C'mon, Subaru is a combat cyborg.

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Fate barely scratched her (i laugh at the concept of people calling some scratches as "having the upper hand" the fight was too short for someone even ganing any sort of upper hand xDU).
Fate damaged her, was clearly blocking her attacks, and wasn't hit once in the entire fight. IF that isn't the upper hand, I have no clue what it is. And please, don't answer that. I'm not arguing semantics with you, that's the last thing I'm doing ....

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Cypha was pretty smug at blocking Quinn's unreacted attack but she wasn't so confident once Quinn reacted so she decided to defeat her quickly and take away her divider.
And yet she defeated her with ease. Stop bringing up insignificant shit, my friend. These posts are long enough.

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EC Driver are, in fact, absurdly more powerfull than everyone else, it's the entire point of the series and the reason why the heroes has been failing so hard for over two years against them.
Nope, it's due to the nature of their regeneration and anti-magic in their reacted forms that make them "absurdly powerful." Unreacted, Signum was clearly superior to Cypha. They are not significant stronger than S+ Rank mages and this has been shown in fights.

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The resillence of each device isn't directly related to the user.
Magical driven devices that are protected by magic doesn't relate to the user? Makes pretty sense.

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Curren destroyed two Strike Cannons from different wielders of very different levels (Vita and Erio) with barely an effort. Tohma did the same to Nanoha's unit and the fortress shields. Cypha also break Signum's shield barehanded.
Curren is much stronger than Vita (a quick tip in powerscaling, this would mean she could replicate Vita's giant hammer lift feat) and Erio, yeah. And you should be well aware Thoma (again, when he was fighting Nanoha > him currently), Curren, and a Reacted Cypha are the Eclipse Drivers with the best showings.

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Cypha didn't damaged Fate because she didn't have time to and probably because Fate is just that good of a fencer, remember Cypha had serious troubles with Signum's speed, and Fate being even faster will mean she'll be an even more difficult target to hit.
What's your point? I never said Cypha couldn't damage Fate (if I did, that would mean Signum couldn't damage Fate). And only a unreacted Cypha had a problem with Signum's speed and that was just barely.

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The same way, Deville escaped his bout with Fate completely unscatched, he even took the luxury of leaving the fight without giving a heck about the blonde swordswoman.
So what? Fate left without a scratch and we haven't seen DeVille in the series since because he's an insignificant spec of trash. See, look at what I did there.

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I agree with you on this. AEC-Equipement is nowhere as powerfull as the usual devices and the attacks produced by those are more likely weaker than the original powerset of the old cast, saldy that powerset were left useless in the face of Eclipse (except Fate's thanks to Bardiche's 5th Gen upgrade). It's very difficult and quite annoying to measure the strenght of old characters inc omparission to the Huckebein because they are denied to fight them with their true strenght roght from the beginning. It's very jarring.
Yep. Cypha's fight with Signum was good, though. She showed some durability.

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Base Deville is at least as strong or stronger than thepowered-up forwards (except maybe Subaru) and arguably at the same level of strenght as the base captains.
Nope, as far as we know, he's far stronger than Subaru and he's surely around Fate's level.

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Quite the contrary, Quinn destroyed Strike Cannon's and fortress shields alike with ease.
You are aware they're protected by magic?

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Carter Grendel managed to destroy a War Hammer the same way.
Yeah, I bet he would break Vita's War Hammer, too ...

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Cypha crushed Signum's AEC-Shield. The irony comes with two of those equipements are specifically made with the intention of withstand strong attacks. That doesn't talk well about their resillence xDU.
Cypha's one of the strongest characters in the series.

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No, but her AEC-Equipement is just as strong (if not stronger as it's a fortress unit designed for heavy defense).
It isn't and wouldn't make any sense.

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You yourself answered the question xD Physical damage is not the same as a physical effect. In a sense, almost ALL spells deal physical damage cause that's the main purpouse for most of them xDU
Physical damage = physical effect. What are you going on about? The breaking of the bonds just doesn't allow the magic to do that.

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With a stronger body, a device who can channel non-magical attacks and the only AEC-Equipement who does it's job well. I think she could stand against Tohma for some time. I never said she'll defeat him, just that her chances to fight him are better than Nanoha's at the time xD
Subaru wouldn't stand a chance against Thoma.

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The difference between magically enhaced melee attacks and "physical strenght" was already expalined above xD
Physical strength is physical strength. No one was talking "raw physical strength", as in no magic, and I have no idea why it was brought up.
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