[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by freedomrulez

What does being bloodthirsty have to do with revenge in the first place? His eyes were always filled with hatred, which is what Shizuka wanted to see. What Shizuika saw in Zero was herself, driven by revenge that led her to wipe out the Kiryuus. Now his madness got the best of him by wanting to destroy all the purebloods. Zero always wanted to kill that woman, but he couldn't due to master-servant bond they shared between each other. Only after he witnessed Yuuki inclining to offer her blood to Shizuka, he became strong and shot his own leg to get out of the bond, allowing him to shoot Shizuka. Zero said he's lived only for that day, to kill her. It was Yuuki who was slowing him down from sinking into a despair. And you call her a poison? let me speak on behalf of Zero, "because Yuuki was there, I might've been able to live on". I failed to grasp his character? please.

Zero is far from mad. He definitely did hate vampires and especially the one who caused his suffering. That's only logical. Did he want to kill Shizuka, absolutely. Eventually he wanted to get revenge but he certainly didn't go out of his way to get in the way of other vampires. He did his job protecting the other students but he didn't want anything to do with vampires to begin with. You said "From the very beginning up till now, Zero has been driven by revenge toward the purebloods" and he hasn't. He wanted to kill to Shizuka but mainly what always driven him was he will to remain human until he actually lost to the craving and bit Yuki. Yuki has helped him I definitely give her credit for that but at the same time his dependence on her has always been his greatest flaw holding him back. No, that not entirely Yuki fault most of the blame lies with Zero but and I more or less understand why he does it but still don't like that he does.

Your interpretation is almost laughable. What you had in mind is a doubt that you wanted to clarrify, not a mystery. If he really was a mysterious person, he wouldn't have given a straightout answer to begin with, nor would you think that the mystery is resolved just like that. Thus, comparing Kaname with some random guy who had nothing better to do but to stare at the buildings to kill his time (talk about better things to do) is like comparing grapes to grapefruits. Purebloods are hard to understand which adds complexity to their nature. The great saying "Yesterday is a history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift...and that's why it is called present", your outlook on the future is a mystery, because you will never find out your future as it will keep adding on itself. Mystery is an aspect of complexity of a person. Do you know the definition of infinite? it means "god knows", literally.

If a mysterious person doesn't reveal his secrets then you can investigate and unlock that person secrets and reasoning. Most books will reveal the secrets of a mysterious person to the reader and the reader must get a sense of why this person does what he does. His actions have to based on some logic and reasoning. Infinite means something without an end and by definition a mystery has an answer to it so calling a mysterious person's complexity infinite is silly. All I was pointing out was that the mysterious person is not incomprehensible and you can find an answer to the mystery if you try.

Perhaps, I grasp his character must better, and hence with Zero, he is "what you see is what you get". But, Let's just put the whole grasping business aside as it seems more personal rather than a tool, what could be used to determine the complexity of a person.

Complexity of a person can be determined by the different things that go in to their feelings. We can say like Zero who hates vampires but it is not anywhere as simple as that. Does he hate them, yes. But at the same time we see him in the past having doubts and reservations about why vampires are the way they are. We see when he encounters the Level E he was sent to kill he pitied it and was reluctant to kill him. We see that he in fact has most of the time a favorable opinion of some vampires. He doesn't completely trust them but he doesn't go out of he way to do anything to them either. His hate of his fate also influences his hate of vampire. Mixed up in his hate is fear, pity, disgust, distrust, an inability to understand them but at time he does seem to try to relate with them and trust them to a certain extent.

I never said you don't appreciate his character, but I was talking in more general term that it takes matuarity to understand his actions in addition to his character. Bare with me here, but I can't argue if you don't get general to more specific. How does he manipulate "people"? how does his actions contribue to Zero's hate? and lead to dangerous sitation in the school? Seems to me, you are just throwing own vandetta against Kaname rather than providing any reasonable argument.

You misunderstand me. Ok, I'll be specific. Lets take Kaname manipulations in regard to Shizuka. I understand why he did everything he did. I'm not going to argue his reasons, but in the end he got the vampire council after Zero and made Zero be a pawn in his game. Zero sees this and does like it at all that Kaname is messing in his life. This only fuels his dislike more of vampires. Shizuka presence at the school also put many people in danger. Also we also see in Yuki case also. Kaname hiding who Yuki is, while very understandable for her protection in the end the pain and loss it will cause both Yuki and Zero is clear. It has driven Zero right now to his current mindset. Like I said while I understand why he does the things he does that doesn't mean I have to like them. Maturity is not needed to understand his actions because his actions aren't necessarily of a mature person. Manipulating people comes from a sense distrust of others, often that feeling is justified but does not make a case for a person's maturity as sometimes people with no to little maturity are experts at it.

It is not a "NATURAL" self-defense. Consult any doctor, and he will will tell you "oh..he surely needs help", even though doctors thoroughly knows that the person is going through some intense emotional pain. What you just described, cutting oneself to avert the pain, is a perfect example of a person with mental disorder which should be taken seriously. It is mostly caused by the pain, but not everyone attempts to seek the same path as Zero, only the weak minds do. The best way to seek help is to talk to adults, but the shallow way to deal with it is to cut yourself which basically leads to even more pain in the long run. In Zero's case though, Yuuki was there to help him out.

You mistake "natural" for healthy. I understand that it is far from healthy but you must understand that it is far from uncommon or unexpected. People do it to many different levels. Mental disorder it is not. Perfectly sane people do it and live normal lives on the outside. It is not healthy and counseling should be given but calling them weak minded shows your own ignorance. People rarely open up about painful issues and that why often times years of counseling are need. If you expecting Zero to seek out help instead of internalizing the pain you have no understanding of most people. Don't look down on people when you think you would handle their situation better because you are not them and probably would be unable to fathom their feelings.

Sarcasm got the best of you. Knowing that it is Yuuki that keeps him alive, you still call her a poison. I wonder if there is a poison that could actually prevent one from endangering oneself. Did Zero not attemp to shoot himself after having a taste of Yuuki's blood? Point me at a good wisdom of life or a great person that actually claimed killing youself is justifiable. Under any given circumstances, killing yourself will not solve the issue nor will be you able to find the answer you are looking for.

I have no problem with Zero endangering himself for a cause. Yuki is his poison because she holds him back. His dependence on her is frustrating. Japanese practiced Seppuku as a way of ritual suicide as a way to die with honor. They found this practice justified. We today in our society would not find that acceptable but then again that doesn't mean we can judge their actions. Many people in history have commit suicide to avoid capture and torture at the hands of enemies and then there is the practice of euthanasia but that a fairly complex argument I would rather avoid.

Yeah, everyone dies at one point, then why not die after killing everyone? good logic. If you don't find any problem with Zero seeking revenge, then Shizuka shouldn't have been accused of having her revenge on the Kiryuu family either, since they were the ones who killed her lover. What is the difference between the woman who was called, insane, and Zero? revenge or suicide are not something to be encouraged in the society.

Shizuka misdeeds come from her not identifying who was the main object of her revenge. Yes, the Kiryuu were unknowing pawns but killing them solved nothing but her bloodlust. She even compounded her misdeeds by turning, Zero who was in no way a party to the events, into a vampire. Revenge is part of our society whether you like it or not. The U.S. didn't join WWII until after Pearl Harbor, nor did we attack Afghanistan until after the WTC. Blood must be often spilled to prevent even more from spilling in the future.

Mangaka abusing him so much? cry me a river.
There is not much to argue with you finally resorting to this. Even after Zero turned away from killing Yuuki, what is that it makes think he should've pulled the trigger? What do you hate about Yuuki that Zero isn't aware of? and wiping out all the purebloods?

I have no problem with the Mangaka abusing him actually. I have more of a problem with how nice is he made. The abuse of Zero is what pushes this mangaka threw his pains and trails are what make this story interesting. I don't in anyway fault the Mangaka for this. Yuki has always held Zero back. I don't hate Yuki at all but in the end I think Zero has to seek his own path. I want him to chose a path even if it is one lined with blood.

"If" doesn't answer the situation here. Zero was brought to the cross acadamy for a reason. There are those that believe in co-existance between vampires and humans (Kaname, Yuuki, Cross, Night class..etc), and then there are some that don't (Zero, The council, H.A..etc). You pick the side.

The Hunters Association of course. I'd rather be with like minded people that people I hate. Killing vampires gets a bad rap I mean he could become a soldier and kill actual humans.

You have just about accused and blamed everyone in the series to back Zero up for his immodarate actions. And please be more specific about Kaname's actions next time. >_>

I have blamed Zero also. His inability to make a choice infuriates me. I don't think he has to be change his views on vampire in the end either.

" Kaname also seemed to angst over every time Yuki was shown being close to Zero. At least Zero has better reasons to angst over things. " <---what you said

What Kaname felt is jealously, not angst. In this case, they don't go hand in hand and be comparable with what Zero felt 99% of the time. You don't think Zero is not jealous of Kaname the same way? Then he must not be in love with Yuuki.

Angst means a feeling of anxiety. Anxiety means the painful uneasiness of mind usu over an anticipated ill. Now that we understand the meaning of angst we can see that jealously we lead to such anxiety. Yes, Zero is jealous but he also a lot of other things to feel anxious about also.

You misinterpreted the meaning of Kaname's deep slumber. Vampires go torpor when the are morally wounded and don't have enough blood pool to keep them running, which leads to their prolonged sleep of many ages. However, this is not the end of their life as they are not fully destroyed. All they need is blood bath to be resurrected. Rido gave his blood to awake Kaname from his slumber, hence he became Kaname's master (Manga- blood on the crest). I didn't make this up, this is an ancient mythology. Kaname didn't put himself into sleep because he wanted to run away from his life. That doesn't make any sense what so ever.

Is that mention in the fanbook or manga anywhere? You have to understand that vampire operate completely differently in different books. Ancient mythology doesn't translate into fiction the same each way. I understand Kaname went into a sleep but the details are a mystery. We can only guess at the reasons. Was Kaname attack or injured and that why he was asleep? We don't know but from his talks in seems that the despair possibly led him to that state.

Kaname's parents? Juuri and Haruka? you do know that it was the past head vampire king that abolished the monarchy and gave the power to the council for the sake of equal power among the vampires. Pacifism was already established in the past, but never trully attained. The council existed in the distant past without any powers that they have now. Kaname has already pointed out that he had planned to destroy the council in the past, but held back for a reason. The council is, "A system that could no longer tell the difference between good and evil", as exactly what Kaname described. It is only logical to think that Kaname hoped for peace in the past to, with the whole pacifism and overthrowing the council. Has Kaname ever been against the idea of pacifism? Wasn't it because of Kaname, the night class willingly gathered at the Cross Acadamy? and what exactly is that only Kaname can accomplish that Yuuki is aware of? peace is the only answer if you ask me.

We don't know much about pacifism in the past. Even the king who gave up power we have no indication that he was a pacifist. He might very well have been but that doesn't mean he was or that was the reason for the power shift. It is really hard to guess what Kaname's plan are. Usually pacifist don't go out killing people and seems like they are only the start. Good and evil are fairly ambiguous terms too as what he considers evil might not be what we do. You also forget that Kaname was willing to abandon the school and take Yuki with him to safety. I'm not saying he wouldn't have offered them protection but he certainly has abandoned the idea of the school working. Kaname could very well seek peace but we only answer is a bit rash at the current time.

But, not many go as far as Kaname, to be able to put his hand through Shizuka and rip her heart apart, and drink her blood without hesitation for the sake of his love one despite the dark future that he inflicted on himself. Then again, I'm a fan of shounen, and don't read those half assed shoujo mangas that never bring any innovative to the field.

I can't disagree. Kaname is one of the better characters of that design because he does take things to the extreme on occasions.

Show me where I said I don't sympathize Zero? showing sympathy means you understand the character more? I said I don't prefer a character because he/she has my sympathy. That has nothing to do with your personal preferences. Don't dispute my opinion, and if I were only seeing the outside of a person, I wouldn't be here arguing as to why Kaname's actions are not wrong as it seems, nor would I be disagreeing with Zero's take on vampires and his quest for revenge. There is more than it seems.

Show me where I said you don't feel sorry for Zero. I was mocking your mistaken impression that sympathy means only to take pity on a character or feel sorry for them. It does not. To sympathize with also means to put yourself in their place and try to understand their pain or suffering. I relate much better with Zero actions and even in his indecisiveness that Kaname though. I believe you look more on Zero and Kaname from the outside. Kaname actions while understandable and cool looking from the outside once you place yourself in his place you see that in the end he has to understand that his actions will cause suffering and put people lives in danger. People could have and should have died during this attack by Rido. I wouldn't feel right about throwing innocent lives away and so I can't sympathize with his actions there.