[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Now now...
I would like to emphasize on the worldly issues Ranka encounter compared to Alto, Sheryl. (No I am not going to use "and".)

Alto had a good family background and a good bloodline. However, he left his home and lived by his own since he decided to chase his dreams as a pilot. Having to leave alone since a young age means that he has matured way faster than what normal teens that age have to deal with. He had to deal with life's demands, and he naturally had to make decisions by himself during those years he lived alone.

Sheryl was a girl that lived in the harsh Galaxy, where the slums are abundant and living conditions were bad (from what I see, I may be wrong though, you Sheryl gurus may fill me in on the conditions there anytime). She was abandoned (?) and she had to face many worldly challenges too. She had to survive, and she had to make many decisions to survive since her young age. She was likewise, like Alto, forced by their lives to have to learn to make choices since a young age.

Ranka was different. She may have suffered from the trauma of having lost her family, but Ozma adopted her. At least she grew up having a father-esque brother. Her family was more complete, and judging from how protective Ozma is of her little sister, it would be very logical that she had to make few choices in her life herself. Ozma settled everything for her, and in Episode 5 (Miss Macross, correct me if I am wrong) Ranka mentioned that she did not like to be forced into the "prissy all girls school" that she had to go to because of Ozma. Judging from her character, Ranka may have been perhaps affected by either Ozma or her trauma that she grew in maturity much slower. Her growing into an independent, decision making woman was also one of the focuses of the series. By episode 21, she made her choice to make peace with the Vajura.

Okay, so your whole argument here rests on the basis that Ranka is mentally too weak and immature to be held accountable for her own decisions? Why should anybody take her declarations of affection towards Alto seriously, then?

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Sorry about that. I perhaps have not stated my point clearly. I was trying to say that Ranka was the resemblance of a normal human's will. She is not weak willed during Grace's brainwashing, I would consider her having went through lots of trauma before that. She already was on the verge of breaking down, as shown by her in episode 24.

"Is this all my fault...?" (Not a direct quote)

She was already emotionally unsure whether her song was hurting or helping, whether she had really caused the destruction and death of her family, and the fact that Grace was manipulating her. After she was shown all those clips from her past, she naturally broke down. This is not a display of weak will. This is about how she was able to take a catastrophic fact (to her). She acted the way any normal person would: Break down. During the high point of her sadness, she was exploited by Grace, by her false promises of "redemption" from the "bad" that she had "committed".

(Wait... did you expect a 16 year old, emotionally traumatized girl to go "No! I refuse to believe that! This is not true!"?)

And again, if your whole argument is that Ranka is a weak-willed ninny who cannot be held accountable for her own decisions, why should we take her seriously as a character and as a romantic participant in that weak triangle we got? I am pretty tired of the double standard Ranka fans apply to her on that account.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

There was no data given regarding as to the reason which made Ranka not tell about what happened, and it would be hard to actually argue about this point, so I would personally say it is up to interpretation. I would personally interpret it as Ranka being traumatized by the incident, or simply telling it because she did not feel it was important.

Really, I feel this point hard to argue about. But yes, I have to agree with your point, if she did tell. Then again, what would showing pictures and being able to talk have to do with Alto hating the Vajura less? It has no effect in dampening the effect that the Vajura destroying Ranka's family's fact have on Alto... perhaps you can enlighten me on this one.

It would first off have been a big argument towards trying to establish peaceful relations with the Vajra. Up until that moment ( for Ranka ) and for until much later ( for most others on Frontier ), the Vajra were those huge monster who attacked Frontier without any bigger cause than territorialism.

Alto himself immediately switched sides and let go of his hate for the Vajra when presented with evidence of their true intentions, much later on in the series.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

May I get screencaps and show you later in the night or perhaps tomorrow? I hate being hounded by my parents for watching anime.
Please be patient with this one!
Screw my nice manners. I am going all-out now. Give me time, and I will be back soon.

Sure. I'm out of the house until late evening in Germany in a few minutes, anyway.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

I would like to rebut this.
Now...
Your sentence is trying to say that being professional means being someone that has totally no feelings.

Nope. Just someone who can control them enough to not totally melt down at such an innocent situation.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Quietly leave? She has not even been declared the loser yet. She was about to confess when she saw that sight on the balcony, further deepening the initial injury.

Uh, which initial injury? She was ( wrongly ) sure that Alto had chosen her, due to the misunderstanding with the sky-heart.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Why did Alto not bother? Perhaps... He was still unsure who he would choose at that point?

Or maybe he was quite sure, but didn't want to upset Ranka further? ^^

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

And many sane persons would go and ask... give me proof if you want proof from my statement. Nobody is going to take that seriously without evidence. (Playing the evidence war with me? Blast all my points to oblivion and I will too)
Being professional is one thing, being human is another. Ranka is not a professional by any standards considering her little amount of time she had to handle her military job.

She is a professional singer, which means sucking it up and doing your work ( being an entertainer ), even if you don't feel like it. That is exactly what Sheryl was telling her. Also, you wanting "proof" that not everybody has a huge public breakdown when s/he discovers that the person she loves is with another person? You really want me to hunt down personal experiences or something like that? Is your scope of knowledge of human behaviour that limited?

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

You have me on the offensive here.
You misunderstood: I was saying that to my knowledge, I knew that everyone has that defense mechanism. Memory lost is usually triggered by high emotional trauma, with varying results with each individual. Every person has it. It is whether it is triggered or not. I know my science. Please.

Link or it didn't happen. If you want to yell "Science!", then produce a link to a study or at least a Wikipedia entry.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Laughable? How is that laughable?
Her experiences were made through her resolve for Alto: Protect Frontier? Alto. Make Peace with Vajura? Alto. Go on a possibly dangerous journey? Alto.
At the end, episode 25, Ranka also sang--for Alto.
Describe to me how that is laughable and I will decimate your comment if I can.
In fact, I think it would be more graceful for Sheryl to give up considering she already knew the confession, instead of still sticking around.

Aaaaand Alto of course has no decision power, right? Even if Ranka did not grow even a millimeter in her leave from Frontier and still was totally obsessed with Alto, over all the other concerns, she still has to contend with the fact that Alto just isn't that into her.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Refer to my previous answers.

Not buying your "everyone has it". At all.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Let me do some research on this one if I can. I am pressed for time on this one also.

Sure.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Answered. Case closed.
This point as been stomped to the ground harder than smashing a V9 at full speed into the Battle Frontier.

If your answer was "Ranka is not fit to be a consenting adult, she is just a child, and should be treated like that for all her decision processes, which by the way makes her unfit to be in a romantic relationship", then, yeah, you just stomped something into the ground allright.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Answered. Case closed.Explained. It is not stupidity either. You are attacking the character.
If you want elaboration, here is it.
Ranka, when she was captured by the Queen, did get shown stuff, but the problem is whether she felt it was important or not. Please look at it from a perspective of a 16 year old too.
Episode 12. You are discrediting Ranka. She is often the one that needs saving. But in this episode, Ranka was the one saving Alto.

Ep 12: Where did I say that it was excusively her who needed saving? Please quote.
Ep 16: How the hell can anybody who is not mentally damaged consider something like that not important? One needs to be in full-fledged apologia mode to dismiss this point.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

She changed because she thought that she could help Alto in what he was doing. Check, Brera also approved of it. Ranka is still a "child" at that point of time, thus she was still being easily influenced. Refer to my analysis of their experiences and why they act certain ways at the top of the post, or somewhere near there.

Yep, she's a weak-willed child, allright. Also disloyal to her mentor Elmo.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Around this time she was also shown to suffer pain from the Vajura's deaths at that time...

Your point here is...?

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Reasonable misinterpretation.
She started out trying to reach Alto with her songs.

Once again, your point here is what exactly?

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

She did not cause Mikhail's death.
She could not control her feelings because she is not a hardcore professional singer like Sheryl. Ranka was but an ordinary human with feelings too.
It is not on her intent. She tried to help. In both morality and utilitarianism she is right.

Yeah, yeah, I get it, she's a weak-willed ninny who cannot be relied upon. I really didn't think that this would be the "ideal Ranka" which was so worshipped by her fans, but there you go.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

However, she has also demonstrated many times in the past that she could. Reasonable.
She is NOT, I repeat, NOT ditching her responsibilities. She took it up formlessly when she went to the Vajura Planet. And Brera was her escort because Brera is up to it.

You haven't disproven anything here. Not a thing. How about you try to refer a bit to the points I made about what Ranka knew at the point of her departure and how that factors into her responsibilities?

But, ah, I forgot that Ranka cannot be held accountable for anything, because she is puuuure and innoceeeeent.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Overruled. And makes this part completely pointless. It is not explicitly stated in the anime nor is it even mentioned nor hinted. As you said... Provide me evidence.

Yeah, it was kind of a cheap-shot. Although she does feel something at the time of Sheryl and Alto being together, as evidenced from her own dialogue.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Do not "what if". It is a fact Brera was chosen, thus you should talk from the standpoint of Brera. And Grace was not "godmode". Her starting motivation was part of this motivation as well.

But it was Rankas intent to talk Alto into being her escort, so she should have factored his capabilities in. Brera himself wasn't enough to keep the Vajra at bay.

And Grace pretty surely was in sort of a "godmode". How the hell did she manage to survive the next wave of that planet full of Vajra? In any case, that actually is irrelevant to the rest of the argument here.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Countered till no end.

Innocent as the pure driven snoooooow. I.e. not actually fit for adult relationships.

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

She did not have to "redeem" herself in any way, since she started out with good motive.

You wanna tell this to the families of the thousands of victims of the Vajra attacks?

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

You are using the benefit of not knowing. I shall use that too.
She had no evidence that Grace was the enemy.
She had no evidence that she would be controlled.
So... third point overruled. She did not leave her people to their deaths, this statement is made on the basis that Ranka is the president of Frontier. Alright, fine, if the humans were "her" people, the Vajura were "her" people too. She is in the area of gray morality here, when you look closely. You are treating the Vajura as if they are non-living.

Total crapshoot is an extreme description. Are you that sure it wouldn't work out?
She had no evidence it wouldn't work out.
Then again, she also had no evidence it would. It sorta balances out.

Being unable to stand up to the pressure, the action that she takes after that was not running away though. It had Alto--and indirectly, Frontier's--interests in mind.

And you are ignoring the factual points I brought up of the situation Frontier would be left in during her absence. No surprise.

She left Frontier defenseless, to the best of her knowledge. But, hey, she is only a child in your interpretation, higher cognitive functions therefore do not apply, right?

Originally Posted by Ozuma-Rii

Your perception. Then again, are the Vajura not living to you?
I am saddened by your description of her.
Ranka has sympathy for her enemy, or perhaps not even her enemy

The Vajra are living beings. Beings who chose to invade and kill and maim, without trying to otherwise communicate. So, yeah, I hold them in low esteem.