[Thess]

Originally Posted by Grey

You said he wanted to avoid unnecessary bloodshed. But now you're saying, "Of course he's a soldier and they fight?"

Fighting =/= killing or humiliating. Saber is a knight. She enjoys fighting and jousting. As does Rider. And Lancer. Is exercise and what they do.

Originally Posted by Grey

He's a man who wanted Saber and Lancer for his army, and he wanted to become flesh and blood so he could properly conquer the world. However you spin it, those aren't the actions of someone who is aiming to avoid conflict, violence, or bloodshed. Those goals and actions will naturally lead to conflict and bloodshed. Otherwise he wouldn't need an army in the first place.

Every single goal can lead to bloodshed. Bloodshed is inevitable in Fate. You can't save everyone it's impossible.

Saber's wish to save her country and rewrite history? It'll lead to bloodshed too. The Anglo-Saxon people are the ones you know as England now. Those were Saber's enemies. Hell, there're high chances United States won't even exist if she gets with her wish granted (since her Britain is the Romano/Welsh one).

Sure, Rider's wish could potentially kill people, however, it could also kill less than Saber's (considering the ramifications of his real wish: Oceanus). Once again you believe that Rider's conquering has to do with destruction and with humiliation when he explained it's the opposite. Could it happen? Sure, it could! But from the headstart, Saber's wish is more guaranteed to fuck up the world than Rider's.

Let's not even touch Gilgamesh's...

Originally Posted by Grey

When you boil it down, he sheds blood when it fits with his desires. The only difference is in their desires, and when it calls for them to shed blood.

All of their desires call to spill blood. Did you miss that they need to kill each other to make it real?

Rider's completely out of place because he wants to save Saber, Lancer, etc.

Rider only spills blood when he has fatigued all other ways of dialogue. Did you miss that he wanted to negotiate all the time while Saber is sword-happy at drop of hat and even Lancer was annoyed that he bailed her ass from his spear in episode 4?

You're once again mistaking that Rider doing as he pleases = evil or bad. He is disgusted when Gil shows sadistic thrill to watch Saber suffer under her crushing burden. He lives the day without holding back, but his amusements are mostly harmless (hell, he's living right now and what he does with his time? Does he go making children furniture? No, he orders a T-shirt, he reads books, watches TV, buys video games, charms an elderly couple...). Carpe Diem.

Doing what you want is only problematic when the nature of the person is evil like Caster. However, Rider's Neutral Good. His desires and wants are portrayed as pretty benevolent and that's why he was beloved and followed by so many. Because he was a grand, straightforward, simple man with a vision and a dream they could share. He compares Clinton to Darius, his opponent in the past, but speaks of Darius to Waver in the novels as a good friend of his.

Originally Posted by Grey

Of course, the LN may spin the whole "conquest" thing as aiming for a greater good, like the anime suggests with Kiritsugu. So it would be "bloodshed for a good cause." But IIRC, they haven't explicitly developed that as a goal of Rider's conquest yet. And I still haven't read the LN up to where the anime ends.

The anime spells out what Rider thinks is conquest in the earlier episodes. Spells aloud what was Rider's true desire (Oceanus).

There aren't good causes for bloodshed. It's a sad inevitability sometimes.