[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Endscape

True, we never see him killing Zouken, however Shinji brought him down there, and I doubt it was for sightseeing, hell why else would he bring him down there except to kill him?

No idea. But, there is no evidence that Zouken got killed there whatsoever.

As for Zouken detecting him, I'm not quite sure if Gil can go spirit form or not ( the scene in Fate where he fights Saber indicates he can, as well as the fact that he disappears when killed like other Servants, but if he went in there in spirit form, would Zouken notice?

Going into spirit form doesn't stop boundary fields from detecting you. They're magical fields, after all. They detect magical entities passing through them just as much as normal humans. In any case, Zouken isn't stupid. Plus, he has his main worm inside Sakura, which means that to kill him, you have to get it out of her somehow....

And I disagree with that. They should sort out their problems before going into a relationship. In a relationship like that, both sides end up hurting each other.

How? In any case, the only thing that can solve their problems is each other. They need someone else who cares deeply for them, to encourage them to care for each other.

I agree on the love and trust, but as I said they're too dependent on each other. Relationships like that never end well.

I don't see any problem there.

I disagree totally with your views on Shirou and Rin.

And I disagree with your views on Shirou and Sakura....

Please read what you just wrote. Two people who cannot live without the other is healthy to you? That's normally called mental instability. They take people to mental hospitals for that. Yes, Sakura isn't normal, and someone like Shirou is needed to help her, but not necessarily in a romantic sense. They'd be better off waiting for them to go through their problems first.

Two people who care so deeply for each other that their lives are not meaningful without one another are simply deeply in love. That is what love is. And, it will only last for a short time. As they both develop as people (which they will), they will become more capable of surviving without each other.

But, to say that they should avoid a relationship because they care too much for each other is ridiculous.

And they also don't let hundreds of innocent people die for one person's sake.

Shirou never did that. He didn't know Sakura was going to kill anyone, and he certainly didn't know that she would kill that many. He assumed that he would be able to stop her if she went insane.

And please point out a case where a superhero had the clear choice between the life of a loved one and the lives of hundreds of people, please?

Well, they don't....

That's the point, I suppose. FSN provides a rather thorough deconstruction of those sort of heroes. In reality, they would be forced to make such decisions, and the result would either be something like HF Shirou, someone who protects the people they know first, or someone like MoS Shirou, who would inevitably break in the end, like Kiritsugu did.

Incidentally, superheroes do pick certain groups of people to protect. Superman, for example, protects Metropolis and his friends more closely than the rest of the world. If there's a major disaster, he'll go anywhere to deal with it, but more minor things he can only deal with in his local vicinity.

I guess I can see your point there? Most of those Saber fans are angry that Nasu killed her off because Shirou more than likely wouldn't have fallen for Sakura or have any problems with Archer's arm if she were there.

I'm pretty sure Shirou would have fallen for Sakura regardless of whether or not Saber died (Saber's death doesn't alter his feelings for Sakura in any way, and once he realises that he was simply pretending to himself that she was nothing more than a little sister to him a relationship was inevitable). However, the rest of the plot wouldn't have worked very well with Saber around. For a start, she wouldn't have been remotely pleased with the idea of protecting Sakura, I'd imagine, and she certainly wouldn't have liked the idea of having Rider around. Plus, it would have made winning a hell of a lot easier.

Spoiler for Hollow Ataraxia:

In HA, in the Zelretch's Box scenario, Shirou and Rin get stuck in a trunk made by Zelretch using the Second Magic, meaning the inside is in another dimension. They can't get out, so they try to call for help with a cellphone. The call connects to a phone in a parallel future, which from the descriptions seems to be based after UBW. That world isn't a part of the HA dream world. Before you say it's a part of Avenger's dream, it can't be, since it mentions Luvia , and Avenger cannot possibly know about her as well as some of the other things that are mentioned.

Oh, OK, you meant that the alternate world was post-UBW....

Well, I don't know enough about HA to argue with that....