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Old 2013-01-01, 20:38   Link #31548
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The creator could also believe it though. In fact, couldn't the creator believe it even if nobody else does? The main thing is somebody is presented the gold and chooses to embrace it. Whether that's a person doing it to themselves out of genuine belief or self-deception, or a person deceiving others or simply representing a belief they hold for others. Still, I wouldn't use "faith" as that's something of a loaded term. A gold truth can be approached rationally, I think, by a person who believes the gold truth to accurately represent reality as they understand it, so long as their misunderstanding is wrong in some fashion.

As an example, let's say I observe that the stars in the sky appear to rotate in a mostly regular pattern around the earth. From this I profess that the Earth is the center of the universe. Supplemented with other information (such as religion and other observations), this is a truth that people would come to accept, although the conclusion is in fact faulty. However, it would take a much deeper degree of rational study to conclude things like the transversals of the planets do not conform to the model of a geocentric universe. And a greater degree of courage still from there to conclude that the "gold truth" of Earth at the center of the universe is wrong.

Nobody deceived me into believing the Earth was the center of the universe and I wasn't deceiving others when I suggested it to them. They believed me because my facts (red) appeared to present that scenario as the most reasonable truth. We weren't exactly accepting on faith that my conclusion followed from my premise, we were just wrong. Jumping to conclusions. Failing to notice all the data.

I'm not disputing your claims, just that I'd use a different word than "faith," because it implies the person accepting it isn't doing so based on reasonable facts that appear conclusive (but aren't) when in fact they could be.
That's more or less why I call it someone's belief.
I can believe in something because I valued all the fact and that seems the truth and I can believe in something merely out of faith or out of personal will.

All this regardless of my belief being the truth or not.

Probably whoever read Umineko, valued all the facts and believes Yasu is Ikuko can say it in gold and whoever believes Yasu isn't Ikuko can say it in gold as well.

In the same way if someone heard by a friend that Yasu is/isn't Ikuko and believes him, even if he had never read Umineko, he too will be able to say it in gold.

But more interesting, who believes that Rosa is the culprit is likely able to say it in gold and his gold truth can be stronger or weaker than the red truth Yasu did it, according to the strenght of his belief (which can be based on reasoning or an 'I heard it from my friend' or 'I dislike Rosa and I want her to be the culprit' or whatever else...)

Going along on this line probably the game master could have said the description of all the fantasy scenes in gold if he was good enough to delude himself that was all it went...
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