[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

I was talking about character development, not plot progression.

Well, my point is simply that it's not always bad to take the predictable approach, be that with plot progression or character development. Now, I'll admit that it's ironic that I write that as I'm a person who tends to like plot twists, but even I would say that it's sometimes better to take the more tried, tested, and true route, even if it is predictable.

While I respect your viewpoint, I still strongly think that this episode (and 2-part arc) would have been a lot better if it had allowed Enishi (and Takako) to succeed.

What I was saying was that there are some kinds of character development we see more often than others, and I thought that trying to present a less common type of character development wasn't as bad of a goal (even if it was totally bungled) as people have been making it sound.

I just don't see any positive purpose in having a character already established as a failure to be made to look like a failure yet again (in his own character arc no less!) Unless we viewers are simply supposed to laugh at him, and I don't get the impression that we are. Enishi isn't hugely likable, but he's just sympathetic enough that I can't bring myself to laugh at his misfortune. So the overall effect of having him fail again... well, you know that commercial about the Trix Rabbit never getting any trix, and the kids constantly saying "Silly rabbit! Trix is for kids!"?

Yeah, this episode had much the same impact on me as that chain of commercials does.

"Silly Enishi! The Inn is for your sister!"

It leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. It really does.

I don't care how well you execute kids constantly teasing a rabbit, and denying him the cereal he wants, it's still a fundamentally bad idea, in my view. At least when it comes to creating a story that people want to watch (as a marketing ploy for cereal, I couldn't say ).

I don't think that either direction for Enishi's character development inherently flows better or worse with the overall idea of loving your work. The reason that it flows badly as is is because of the delivery of the message, not the message itself. As the media demonstrates regularly, you can spin any set of events to flow well with whatever argument you're making.

I think the message itself might be a bad message to send. Constant (and at times major) failure is not good (or even acceptable) just because you admit to your failures. Constant occupational failure does not jive with loving your work, in my opinion. If you love your work, you naturally will want to become better at it (unless you're already good at it), and you will become better at it (if you're not good at it already). So if Hanasaku Iroha is aiming to have "loving your work" as a central idea then it logically should show people doing well at their work.

Even if the show had taken the predictable path towards character development, it could've just as easily have been screwed up and not had anything to do with the overall message.

I disagree. Again, I think it's a very smooth logical chain from "loving your work" to "succeeding at your work".

To have Enishi's character develop in a convincing fashion from incompetence to competence, irresponsibility to responsibility, or some analogue, they would have needed something better than him suddenly succeeding at making this movie deal.

Why? Enishi succeeding at making this movie deal would show the following:

1. Very good people skills (working with actors and movie producers over a long period of time)

2. Good managerial skills (having to balance work schedules so they don't conflict with the filming of the movie).

3. Enishi gradually developing competence and responsibility in having to overcome those hurdles.

And here's the key: These are things that I can already imagine Enishi pulling off, because he can (in his better moments) come off as nice and friendly (which gives him a good starting point when it comes to people skills).

Actually, having Enishi succeed at this movie deal would be the perfect way to develop his character towards competence and responsibility in a convincing fashion. It helps that Enishi is clearly into movies and movie-making a lot, so it would believably follow that he would succeed at something tied to one of his personal passions.

Having him suddenly become a successful businessman and leaving it up to the audience to infer how he had changed to do that would have been pretty lame and not really have had much to do with loving your work.

The audience wouldn't have to infer much of anything. Enishi saw a golden opportunity to utilize something that he's really into (i.e. movies) to help benefit the inn, and this naturally brought out the best in him. That was more or less my take on Enishi from Episode 16. It was plain as day to me. And I enjoyed Episode 16 a lot more than I did Episode 17.

Ideally, Enishi would have realized something that changed his outlook on life/kissuiso/whatever.

Nothing better to change a person's outlook on life then to realize that there's a golden opportunity there that they can grab hold of. A golden opportunity that makes them more enthusiastic about life in general.

The message the episode tried to convey failed for the same reason "Enishi suddenly succeeds at everything" would have failed.

That's a strawman argument.

Nobody said that Enishi should suddenly succeed at everything.

Having him succeed with this big movie project is not having him succeed at everything.

It didn't showcase Enishi's character development in a compelling, onscreen way. As Archon_Wing said, if he got "over" and the audience saw why he was able to do so, the episode would've been fine even if he lost.

Nobody gets "over" if they constantly lose. Any pro wrestler can tell you that.

Look, in real life, do people generally prefer it when the underdog wins, or do they prefer it when the underdog gets smashed down yet again? What's more enjoyable to watch? What leaves a better taste in your mouth?

So both messages could have flowed or not flowed with the overall idea. It just depended on the way the message was delivered, which was lacking in this case.

I disagree.

I think it would have been much, much better for this anime to take the route of having Enishi and Takako succeed. We've already seen them fail (and in Enishi's case, take abuse for it). Seeing them succeed would be refreshingly different, and help to make them more likable characters, in my opinion.


Edit: One thing I want to make clear here is that I don't think the situation is entirely unsalvageable. With the right plot twist, Enishi can still come out of it Ok. The question is if the anime will go that route, and if it will have time to go that route.

And this anime as a whole can still be very good, imo. It's had its share of episodes I didn't like, but it's had it shares of episodes I really liked too.