[Midonin]

It's been a while, and my old thread is the best place to go. Both of these posts are from this forum, but I've removed the names, because I want to focus on what was said rather than who said it.

I feel it's more that Girls und Panzer was made this way because that's what the creators wanted rather than them thinking this would be what viewers were interested in. The previews and the first episode seem to be purposefully set up like a lot of those other cute girls doing cute things shows to sucker viewers in.

The 3rd episode is when [Sakurasou no Pet na Kanojo] delved into something much more than just generic harem anime fanservice-fest, imo.

It might be sad to say, but I think marketing is the answer for why the first two episodes are the way they are.

"Let's hook in the biggest fanservice fans first, and then see who else we can pick up through good character drama and romance." - Production Member A

"Agreed, but going by the three-episode rule, we need to move to the deeper material no later than episode 3" - Production Member B

These two comments are on shows that are very different in tone, goal and style. Curiously, they both have Ayako Kawasumi playing someone from the Anglosphere.

I like both of them, one for having a quirky cast of schoolgirls, the other for having a focus on the arts, but I also enjoyed the first two or so episodes of those shows for their comedic, some might say "generic" atmosphere. These two comments, while neither of them is malicious in nature or intent, both have this unspoken undercurrent about the media and about fans with my interests. I'm not saying these are indicative of a larger trend, either. The second one in particular has been bugging me since October when they first debuted.

I don't like the implications that Akiba-type fans are being thrown under the bus.

Now, many people probably enjoy both of these things, or many of them. People who can enjoy over-the-top, somewhat fanservicey comedy and drama. People who can enjoy cute girls doing cute things with the background adding flavor and military things. But what annoys me about these two posts is the idea that the "fanservice fans" or the "moe fans" are somehow more gullible, and the ones who see what either show ends up evolving into and is glad it isn't another "generic" thing are somehow above them. Even if there's probably a good chunk of people out there* who would've enjoyed the shows just as much, or even more, if they were familiar, defining themselves in other ways. Depth comes in many forms.

*not verified.

A variant of this argument could be applied to Madoka, too, but when it comes to Madoka, what I was watching the show for - the magical girl element - remained roughly the same even as the show's tone and story changed. With Sakurasou, the comedy never entirely vanished, but it certainly became downplayed. It ties back to something that's been a common gripe of mine - why is it that comedy, or certain genres, are always considered "generic" at the outset and have more to prove? I often enjoy the first six or so episodes of many series more than the more dramatic turns - I feel comedy simply gives me more to discuss.

In GuP, the character-driven relationship stuff was quickly replaced by clunking machines and characters acting more as teams than individuals. Like with Sakurasou, the elements I started watching for never completely disappeared, but they were downplayed. But I posted plenty about that in its own thread.

I enjoy cute girls and nerd slang and marveling in the derivative works fan create based on these things, on character goods and character songs and anime that doesn't feel a need to conform to realism. The Akiba-type of fan and Akiba culture aren't just peripheral to anime, to me, they're a vital part of the experience. But all I ask is to not feel like, if I'm watching for those elements, that I'm just a tool of marketing, a momentary distraction before the "real" show begins.

Either side sees things as an uphill battle for themselves. Either you have plenty of series to choose from but no "credibility", or almost instant credibility but a lack of series to choose from. I don't know what portion of this board's readership composes of fans like myself - for all I know, I could be the only one - but every time I see a post about how an anime can be "taken seriously" or "isn't like the others" or isn't "pandering", that unspoken subtext of "not like them" is infuriating. It can be done even without meaning to. And it's always that type of anime that's the target for these kind of comparisons. Why always compare against a negative? You can build up a show's merits without tearing something else down in the process. Or if there is going to be snark, I like having some form of appreciation behind it instead of vitriol, though I understand not everyone thinks that way. Word choice and tone can imply a lot of things, even if the rest of the post is formal and polite. The actual picture is probably like neither side paints it, but the credibility makes a huge difference. This blog post summarizes the problem much better than I could.

Which takes me into a second, slightly different, but related thesis.

A lot of stories are about humans, or a place, that also holds humans. The planet Aqua is as much a character as Akari. Even robots can be human, as Akiho has attested. But for someone who's trying to bridge the gap between various types of otaku, I don't want to appear hypocritical, and will thus put forth something personal. I can get along with almost any type of fan, but I have a tough time seeing eye to eye with military otaku, at least in regards to show discussion. The reasons why stem from various things entirely outside the scope of this forum, but if we're speaking in terms of anime discussion, it's because for shows like GuP and Upotte, discussion focused primarily on tools, treating characters as secondary. For someone who's viewed a story through characters all their life (thus affecting the kind of stories I'm likely to view in the first place), I want to find some way to find common ground. If there are going to be more shows like GuP down the line (I know at least one is already set), then I don't want to go through this again - though I understand it was mostly my fault, a simple personal reaction, the first time.

A fujoshi and a casual fan and a yuri fan might view a character differently, but they're ultimately both looking at the same character. In this case, the "focal point" from the Akiba and military types isn't on the same plane - they're more likely to look at the plane, I'm more likely to look at Charlotte Yeager and want to know about her personal relationship with Lucchini, which I likely envision as a yuri one because my goggles are always on. It's like we're watching two entirely different shows. Which is a given, but with this type of fandom clash of ideals... The first step to creating discussion is finding common ground, and we're all in this together, so what common ground can be found here?

This has worked before - I'm not a super dedicated fan of Strike Witches, for example, but if I'd mention it and So Ra no Wo To in the same breath as "military anime" (albeit in different ways), I'd say I like both, but the way Upotte and GuP expressed themselves... I wanted to like them, and for the most part I did, but I found myself unable to discuss. And being able to talk with my fellow fans, even if we're only connected by a small thread or two, is important. GuP's overwhelming popularity with the Western fandom was a factor, and I'd be dishonest if I said it wasn't, because I felt the reasons it was becoming popular show a difference in the Western fandom and the Japanese fandom, in military otaku and Akiba types like myself, that represents a wide gulf that I had never really come into contact with before.

I don't want to irrationally hate a group. Especially if, in all other instances, for all other shows, discussion may progress in a perfectly normal way. I'd only be hurting myself. I even find some of them cool, even if they're fictional. Ota-Ma!'s Ameri is a friend I'd trust with any of my troubles.



The file name even has "i luv" in it. I think that's a sign. Or a really cheeky random letter generator.

It's a debate that has come up hundreds of times before, but I hope I was able to bring a new angle to it this time.