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***relentlessflame*** · 2024-09-03, 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, that's how things are *now*. But how did the Church grow from "small cult of weirdoes rejecting the actual gods" to "dominant religion"? And also the pagan gods we've seen have better than human average intelligence. Why didn't a few of them start their own religion and outcompete the Church while it was still small?

I don't think it's necessarily that the "small cult of weirdos" was setting out in the first place to reject the actual gods. They were just one religion among many that had their beliefs (even if it was, or became, monotheist). What happened is that eventually the church became intertwined in money and politics, and so now the political leaders running the show are becoming paranoid about things that could hurt their power/control. This campaign isn't something they embarked on until after they got into power.

As for why the political leaders would choose to align with this church rather than the pagan gods... well, despite what they preach, the church is fundamentally run/controlled entirely by people. (If their god does exist, it's not typically seen or heard.) With the pagan gods, they can literally smite you. So if you're an ambitious person who wants to cement your power and influence, you want to make sure you're at the top of the food chain. This is also tied with why they are now trying to weed out any remaining forces that could smite them.

Basically, it's not really a fight between "religions" but about human ambition/greed and the quest for power playing out in this world increasingly revolutionized by societal progress and trade. And the pagan gods, intelligent and wise though they may be, fundamentally aren't really about that on the whole. (The moon-hunting bear obviously had their own show of/quest for power, but not really the same.) Basically the only way for them to have stopped this in the past would be to somehow gain political power/influence in their own way. It's possible that, in other parts of the Spice & Wolf world, there are other dominant religions that still retained ties to the pagan gods, just not really in this particular area where the influence of pagan gods is dwindling (thanks in no small part to the crusades).

Frontier · 2024-09-09, 13:33

Well, Tereo's in a bad situation. Their wheat was poisoned and someone died as a result, and now Enberch is going to hold them responsible and return all their wheat...leaving Tereo, who spent pretty much all the money Enberch gave them, without much of a strong position stand on. And plenty of frustration for the likely suspects behind it, Lawrence, Holo, and Evan. But at least Sem is a cool enough head to make them focus on the important things instead of lynching anyone

.

Elsa isn't unscathed either. Not only is her boyfriend a suspect but the village starts to turn on her for from their perspective never doing anything and not contributing as much as their Snake God did. But I'm glad Iima's got her back. Girls gotta stick together, right

?

Well, this is another fine mess Lawrence and Holo have landed themselves in, with Lawrence once again facing imprisonment with the likelihood that he'll be used as the scapegoat when Enberch arrives. Though it would be easy for Holo to just transform and bail with him back to his Merchant association where he'd be safe, but Lawrence can't bear with abandoning Elsa and Evan who would be the pair most likely to get put on the chopping block after them. So they've got to make it work for all four of them

.

Elsa's a smart girl, she realized Enberch was likely behind everything, but she can't rely on her patron for help and no one in the village takes her seriously. But it's kind of sweet how she prioritizes getting Evan out of this situation rather than herself. Even if Evan is also a bit of a snoop

.

Elsa calls Father Franz "father" so it seems like he genuinely regarded him not only as a mentor but as a father figure

.

I love how despite everything that is going on Holo and Lawrence can still banter with each other like usual. Nothing would be worth more than Holo's sacred tears

.

Well, Elsa interrupted an intimate moment between Holo and Lawrence, only fair Lawrence interrupts an intimate moment between Evan and Elsa

!

But Elsa has so much on her mind and is so stressed she collapses...and it really feels like this village doesn't deserve her or all the work she and Father Franz tried to do to help. The village was too caught up in the luxury of their deal, crediting their Snake God, and living it up that they lost sight of the people who made that happen. Maybe the village had this coming all along

.

Bad news is that there's not much in the book about Yoitsu that Holo and Lawrence didn't already know. The good news is it sounds like Holo's fellow wolves escaped! So her people are still out there, she just has to find them

!

Well, the lynch mob is back and it's time to go, with Iima saying some wise words about how life in the village may have appeared pleasant and easy but it wasn't like the real world, and all you really need is the people you love by your side. And that's enough to firm Elsa and Evan's resolve to escape with Lawrence and Holo

.

Lawrence, you were asking for that jab. Holo's human form is perfect

!

grecefar · 2024-09-09, 17:39

I don't think they are going to run away just like that and something else will happen, there is one more chapter, looking foward to the conclusion.

Thor's Hammer · 2024-09-09, 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by grecefar

I don't think they are going to run away just like that and something else will happen, there is one more chapter, looking foward to the conclusion.

There are actually 2 more episodes. Looking forward to seeing how this is resolved.

BBOvenGuy · 2024-09-10, 01:16

Japanese-language question. What's the pronoun that Holo is using to refer to Lawrence? It sounds like "noosh"-something. Is it a semi-archaic term? Something more/less formal? I don't think I've heard it anywhere else.

FlareKnight · 2024-09-10, 01:51

I kind of like that they are going ahead and running. They've got this "get out of jail free card" in Holo and this time they seem willing to just go ahead and use it! There's no horse (unless it's also a supernatural entity) that can keep up with Holo. It sucks that they'll have to abandon the wheat, but presumably Lawrence can bounce back from that. All the more so with the association probably being willing to support him this time around (since he didn't suffer loss due to being greedy in this case).

Glad they are taking Elsa and Evan along and that they agreed to go. And honestly good on them. This village dug it's own grave and now they want to shove someone else into it so they can scramble over them. These people enjoyed their good deal and didn't imagine taking steps to be prepared in case of emergency. I'm not saying they need to break their backs all year long. But they definitely could have been doing more during their off-seasons. And the lack of gratitude was a bit much. Franz pretty much saved these people and they never showed him a lick of gratitude for it. At least nothing more than surface level appreciation. The only person in that village that they are leaving behind that I'd feel bad for is Iima. She's a great lady

. But she's also sensible enough to know that these two kids (along with Lawrence and Holo) don't deserve to pay for the sins of this village.

Holo didn't get many answers. But it is a bit good to hear that her friends didn't perish in Yoitsu. It isn't exactly up to date intel, but at the very least it's something!

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Japanese-language question. What's the pronoun that Holo is using to refer to Lawrence? It sounds like "noosh"-something. Is it a semi-archaic term? Something more/less formal? I don't think I've heard it anywhere else.

Admittedly I'm not an expert. But from what I recall she's saying "nushi". Her speech is based on the "oiran (courtesan) speech." Basically they went with something that would sound a bit archaic and exotic to match Holo being an older and non-human entity. It's definitely not a way of speaking that is used in a lot of anime.

scififan · 2024-09-10, 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Japanese-language question. What's the pronoun that Holo is using to refer to Lawrence? It sounds like "noosh"-something. Is it a semi-archaic term? Something more/less formal? I don't think I've heard it anywhere else.

「汝」（ぬし） is used to implying master/lord. In Tale of Genji, the term is by woman to imply close male friend, such as lover or husband.

Lawrence deducts that the villagers will be forced to sell their commodities at unfavorable term, a bad futures indeed.

Anh_Minh · 2024-09-11, 17:16

I kinda wonder what Elsa could do (both for herself and against the assholes villagers) if she were willing to go to Enberch's church and say "I've tried to educate them, and Father Franz tried for decades before me, but that villages remains a village of heretics. Just look at all those statues they've got dedicated to their snake god.". Because those guys were talking mad shit.

Alchemist007 · 2024-09-15, 07:01

I also recall subs for the old anime using 'master' for nushi. The official subber now is just choosing to ignore it altogether.

Frontier · 2024-09-16, 13:30

I know we've got two couples basically on the run and trying to escape a town...but look at all the lewd handholding! That's the real pagan magic going on in this episode

!

I KNEW the secret exit would come out of that cave. Truyeo's cave, though whether the Snake God actually existed or not, it's a convenient escape route. Besides, Lawrence is already hooked on the Church of Holo

.

Evan, I understand the appeal of watching the Holo strip-show, but you're literally standing next to your girlfriend so have some class. The only one who gets to enjoy watching Holo strip is Lawrence (especially since he has to handle her clothes), and the only thing more gloriously divine than Holo's naked body is watching her in her majestic wolf form

.

Nothing more epic than riding Holo! So proud of Evan for holding on tight to Elsa to make sure she didn't fall off

!

Yeah...that's a lot of people coming to Enberch, with the church in tow. Tereo is basically screwed. I mean, it's fun to imagine Holo tearing through them, but that wouldn't really solve anything. Even despite how they were treating him, though, Even still thought of helping the town

.

Holo has given Elsa a lot to think about when it comes to her faith, but whether she's a God or a Wolf, Holo is just...Holo, which means Elsa needs to be true to herself and what she inherited from Father Franz. Even if that means returning to a village that doesn't deserve her and leaving Evan behind. But prospective merchant Evan weighs the costs and gains and knows the emotional cost of leaving Elsa is one he can't live with

.

Ticked Holo is effective in both wolf and human form. Elsa and Evan are going back to fight for their village despite everything, so what does that say about Holo who wasn't there for Yoitsu? Would she have made a difference, beyond adding to the epic that is her legend? But right now she's alive and the past is the past, and she can't dwell on "What If's," not when she has the life she has with Lawrence (which includes sitting on top of him while naked). And that hug from Lawrence makes it all worth it

.

Holo and Lawrence can't just abandon Elsa and Evan after all this, so the only solution seems to be helping Tereo. But how? It would take a miracle...good thing they have a Wise Wolf who, when it comes to wheat, can literally perform miracles

.

grecefar · 2024-09-16, 19:12

Man... I'm not ready for this to be over. I hope a second season is announced as soon the last chapter ends.

Frontier · 2024-09-16, 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by grecefar

Man... I'm not ready for this to be over. I hope a second season is announced as soon the last chapter ends.

Well, the final episode had "Journey Continues" at least...

FlareKnight · 2024-09-16, 21:47

I truly hope we get another season. If they are doing this I truly want to see the whole story adapted.

This was a good episode though. I liked the little outburst between Holo and Lawrence. Although I think she cut it a bit close with the whole nearly crushing him to death thing! But I get it. Obviously the more she learns of the story the more painful it gets. Even if her pride isn't on the level of "that brat" from the second arc, Holo still has plenty of it. The idea of her friends running from this super bear probably has been eating at her. What would she have done if she was there? Would she have gone with them? Would she have fought? That must have been one insane bear if a pack of giant wolves said "nope" and ran. But it's just tough for her to think about. There's no gain in thinking about what didn't happen, but it's hard not to imagine it.

At least Holo can help take action to save "a" village. It's not the village she wants to save and honestly I'm not sure these villagers deserve to be bailed out. But Holo and the others should be able to make a difference.

2024-09-09, 13:33	Link #142
Frontier Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2013	Well, Tereo's in a bad situation. Their wheat was poisoned and someone died as a result, and now Enberch is going to hold them responsible and return all their wheat...leaving Tereo, who spent pretty much all the money Enberch gave them, without much of a strong position stand on. And plenty of frustration for the likely suspects behind it, Lawrence, Holo, and Evan. But at least Sem is a cool enough head to make them focus on the important things instead of lynching anyone . Elsa isn't unscathed either. Not only is her boyfriend a suspect but the village starts to turn on her for from their perspective never doing anything and not contributing as much as their Snake God did. But I'm glad Iima's got her back. Girls gotta stick together, right ? Well, this is another fine mess Lawrence and Holo have landed themselves in, with Lawrence once again facing imprisonment with the likelihood that he'll be used as the scapegoat when Enberch arrives. Though it would be easy for Holo to just transform and bail with him back to his Merchant association where he'd be safe, but Lawrence can't bear with abandoning Elsa and Evan who would be the pair most likely to get put on the chopping block after them. So they've got to make it work for all four of them . Elsa's a smart girl, she realized Enberch was likely behind everything, but she can't rely on her patron for help and no one in the village takes her seriously. But it's kind of sweet how she prioritizes getting Evan out of this situation rather than herself. Even if Evan is also a bit of a snoop . Elsa calls Father Franz "father" so it seems like he genuinely regarded him not only as a mentor but as a father figure . I love how despite everything that is going on Holo and Lawrence can still banter with each other like usual. Nothing would be worth more than Holo's sacred tears . Well, Elsa interrupted an intimate moment between Holo and Lawrence, only fair Lawrence interrupts an intimate moment between Evan and Elsa ! But Elsa has so much on her mind and is so stressed she collapses...and it really feels like this village doesn't deserve her or all the work she and Father Franz tried to do to help. The village was too caught up in the luxury of their deal, crediting their Snake God, and living it up that they lost sight of the people who made that happen. Maybe the village had this coming all along . Bad news is that there's not much in the book about Yoitsu that Holo and Lawrence didn't already know. The good news is it sounds like Holo's fellow wolves escaped! So her people are still out there, she just has to find them ! Well, the lynch mob is back and it's time to go, with Iima saying some wise words about how life in the village may have appeared pleasant and easy but it wasn't like the real world, and all you really need is the people you love by your side. And that's enough to firm Elsa and Evan's resolve to escape with Lawrence and Holo . Lawrence, you were asking for that jab. Holo's human form is perfect ! __________________

2024-09-15, 07:01	Link #149
Alchemist007 Senior Member Author Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA	I also recall subs for the old anime using 'master' for nushi. The official subber now is just choosing to ignore it altogether. __________________ Fanfics Art MyAnimeList

2024-09-16, 13:30	Link #150
Frontier Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2013	I know we've got two couples basically on the run and trying to escape a town...but look at all the lewd handholding! That's the real pagan magic going on in this episode ! I KNEW the secret exit would come out of that cave. Truyeo's cave, though whether the Snake God actually existed or not, it's a convenient escape route. Besides, Lawrence is already hooked on the Church of Holo . Evan, I understand the appeal of watching the Holo strip-show, but you're literally standing next to your girlfriend so have some class. The only one who gets to enjoy watching Holo strip is Lawrence (especially since he has to handle her clothes), and the only thing more gloriously divine than Holo's naked body is watching her in her majestic wolf form . Nothing more epic than riding Holo! So proud of Evan for holding on tight to Elsa to make sure she didn't fall off ! Yeah...that's a lot of people coming to Enberch, with the church in tow. Tereo is basically screwed. I mean, it's fun to imagine Holo tearing through them, but that wouldn't really solve anything. Even despite how they were treating him, though, Even still thought of helping the town . Holo has given Elsa a lot to think about when it comes to her faith, but whether she's a God or a Wolf, Holo is just...Holo, which means Elsa needs to be true to herself and what she inherited from Father Franz. Even if that means returning to a village that doesn't deserve her and leaving Evan behind. But prospective merchant Evan weighs the costs and gains and knows the emotional cost of leaving Elsa is one he can't live with . Ticked Holo is effective in both wolf and human form. Elsa and Evan are going back to fight for their village despite everything, so what does that say about Holo who wasn't there for Yoitsu? Would she have made a difference, beyond adding to the epic that is her legend? But right now she's alive and the past is the past, and she can't dwell on "What If's," not when she has the life she has with Lawrence (which includes sitting on top of him while naked). And that hug from Lawrence makes it all worth it . Holo and Lawrence can't just abandon Elsa and Evan after all this, so the only solution seems to be helping Tereo. But how? It would take a miracle...good thing they have a Wise Wolf who, when it comes to wheat, can literally perform miracles . __________________

2024-09-16, 21:47	Link #153
FlareKnight User of the "Fast Draw" Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada	I truly hope we get another season. If they are doing this I truly want to see the whole story adapted. This was a good episode though. I liked the little outburst between Holo and Lawrence. Although I think she cut it a bit close with the whole nearly crushing him to death thing! But I get it. Obviously the more she learns of the story the more painful it gets. Even if her pride isn't on the level of "that brat" from the second arc, Holo still has plenty of it. The idea of her friends running from this super bear probably has been eating at her. What would she have done if she was there? Would she have gone with them? Would she have fought? That must have been one insane bear if a pack of giant wolves said "nope" and ran. But it's just tough for her to think about. There's no gain in thinking about what didn't happen, but it's hard not to imagine it. At least Holo can help take action to save "a" village. It's not the village she wants to save and honestly I'm not sure these villagers deserve to be bailed out. But Holo and the others should be able to make a difference. __________________ Anime-Evo

2024-09-09, 17:39	Link #143
grecefar Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Blue Notes Blues	I don't think they are going to run away just like that and something else will happen, there is one more chapter, looking foward to the conclusion.

2024-09-10, 01:16	Link #145
BBOvenGuy Math Ninja Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Ventura County CA Age: 59	Japanese-language question. What's the pronoun that Holo is using to refer to Lawrence? It sounds like "noosh"-something. Is it a semi-archaic term? Something more/less formal? I don't think I've heard it anywhere else.

2024-09-11, 17:16	Link #148
Anh_Minh I disagree with you all. Join Date: Dec 2005	I kinda wonder what Elsa could do (both for herself and against the assholes villagers) if she were willing to go to Enberch's church and say "I've tried to educate them, and Father Franz tried for decades before me, but that villages remains a village of heretics. Just look at all those statues they've got dedicated to their snake god.". Because those guys were talking mad shit.

2024-09-16, 19:12	Link #151
grecefar Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Blue Notes Blues	Man... I'm not ready for this to be over. I hope a second season is announced as soon the last chapter ends.