2009-03-15, 21:51 | Link #1 |
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Clannad Ending - Discussion and Interpretation Thread [Spoilers Aplenty]
What this thread is not about: Moaning and bitching about how crap the ending is or Raving and rambling about how great the ending is. There are other threads here for that.
What this thread is really about: As the title suggests, this thread will seek to do exactly what it says, that is to interpret and discuss about the surreal events concerning the Illusionary World that leads to the ending we see in episode 22 of After Story. All speculation, theories and discussion are welcome, and remember to please keep things civil. Finally: Since this is a discussion of the ending, after all. SPOILERS ARE APLENTY! You have been warned. Now to get the ball rolling, here's my take on the ending. I'm not really the sort to lump my thinking into long-winded essays as other talented users here are capable of doing at ease, so they'll all be in point form. Please bear with me.
From here on, I would like to refer to this decent interpretation by this Chinese blogger, I shall attempt to translate to my best into English:
Phew, now that was long! Now feel free to speculate away, and come up with something better and less long-winded than this. (The blogger even went so far as to speculate that the second Robot created by IW Ushio is actually Fuuko. But Fuuko's will to help her sister in CV was so strong she rejected Ushio's help. Ditto for Shima the cat. Though I think that's stretching things a bit far, IMHO. ) Another mention must be given to VRMN's excellent post in the episode 22 thread about the ending. In a way, this is similar to Groundhog Day, or to use a more familiar analogy, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, where the protagonists are given the chance to try and try again before they get things right. Last edited by Kinny Riddle; 2009-03-16 at 00:42. |
2009-03-15, 22:31 | Link #2 |
Ha ha ha ha ha...
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Well, #2 and 3 do a good job explaining how Nagisa and Ushio both died, but the entire concept of the IW is still as weird as hell. I thought it was just meant as a parallel or a metaphor for Tomoya and Nagisa. I didn't know that Kotomi's parents' idea was actually fact. I thought it was just an innocent speculation of the nature of the universe. Very, very bizarre.
I can accept the lights of happiness to a certain extent, but different dimensions connecting and what essentially amounts to time travel? I think Einstein just rolled over in his grave.
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2009-03-15, 22:41 | Link #3 | |
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And really, you need to rewatch the episodes after reading the explanation to see the details. You just have to connect them to understand.
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2009-03-15, 22:59 | Link #4 |
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You know what, I felt like it was a cop out by-- oops BANHAMMER!
Some random thoughts: I wrote earlier: "Without the events of 16-21, Tomoya could not have earned Ushio’s love, required for him to have an existence in the illusionary world." (I was alluding to Ushio's construction of a body for *Tomoya*.) Amusingly, VRMN's post says exactly the same thing (and no, I hadn't seen the post before I wrote that). Coincidence? Hmm, maybe we're soul mates... "Without the love of his daughter, without the events of the past arc, Ushio would have never built the robot for her father's soul to occupy." From the visual novel, given enough light orbs: …I ought to call out. // …声をかけなければ。 But… // でも… Would it be better not to do so…? // そうしないほうが良かったんじゃないのか…。 It would be better not to get acquainted with a person like me… // 俺なんかと出会わなかったほうが… It would probably be better to part our ways here. // このまま、別々の道を歩いたほうが、良かったんじゃないのか。 But… // でも… I… // 俺は… Call out // 呼ぶ Don’t call out //OMG NAGISA DIES –> leads to bad ending // 呼ばない “…NAGISA!” // 「…渚っ!」 Interpretation: (and NOTE THAT I'm referring to the player character as "you"!!) Okay, so before you get the After Story BAD END, you (Tomoya) actually call out to Nagisa during this "flashback" event. But you doesn't really understand why; you doesn't know that Nagisa’s about to die, and you don't know the hell that your immediate relations (Ushio, Sanae, Akki, Naoyuki) are going to experience after Nagisa's death. However, during the BAD END, you will get the remaining light orbs from Naoyuki and Ushio by bringing them happiness/love. [correct me if I'm wrong here, it's been a while...] After you get the After Story BAD END, you now know the hell that you've lived through. You now have the necessary understanding to make the choice to call out to her, or ignore her. Do you regret meeting Nagisa, because doing so caused Nagisa, Ushio, and many others so much unhappiness? If so, you don't call out. You decide that meeting Nagisa led to too much pain and suffering for everyone. You doubt that a happy result could actually occur because of what you've seen from your memories from another world. As such, Nagisa dies in childbirth right afterwards--the same as the BAD END. Or do you realize that regardless of what you know will happen if you meet Nagisa, that Nagisa is the only one who you can be truly happy with? You call out to her, even though you know that meeting Nagisa had led to tragedy before, yet you cling to the hope for a miracle to prevent it. It is then that the miracle occurs, and Nagisa survives Ushio's birth. Last edited by evilr00t; 2009-03-15 at 23:02. Reason: oops |
2009-03-15, 23:02 | Link #5 | |
Ha ha ha ha ha...
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...and as I've said for what seems like the millionth time, I've watched both series at least twice, though it has been a few months since I've rewatched the first CLANNAD series. They never explicitly stated that the IW was really real. I mean, to be honest I never took Kotomi seriously. Why would I? Up until now, there was no real evidence of stuff like parallel dimensions. That, and the anime had been thus far extremely realistic. Even taking the parallel world into account, I was under the impression that the girl/robot was just a metaphor for Nagisa and Tomoya, respectively. Frankly speaking, there's no way I could have known it was Ushio. She hadn't even existed at the time... not even in concept. And even with everyone explaining the ending to me, I still can't see myself sitting down and actually... enjoying... the last episode (22). It's far too disconnected and disjointed to enjoy except as a collection of random abstract concepts that play with time and space like a yo-yo.
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2009-03-15, 23:19 | Link #6 | ||||
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He just puts some hints or clues in order to make people to interpret in their own way what he really wants us to know. It's like he's telling a riddle and he wants us to solve it.
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2009-03-15, 23:40 | Link #7 |
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Well, the framework for Ichinose family's arguments establish the worldview context, but that unfortunately isn't exactly forthcoming without going into some work on the thought experiments in QM. It is of some surprise that Many world under Hawking turns out to simply fit what's been observed in this story flow wise and in Kotomi arc wise. Building this case on 'how can it have happend in the context of the story' took out an entire night of sleep and some cramming though.
The Chinese site has worked out a chronology, but this would apply to the visual novels which is in my argument a bit closer to the Dewitt/Everett variation on Many Worlds.
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2009-03-15, 23:57 | Link #8 | ||||
Ha ha ha ha ha...
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Is this is CV... or what? Quote:
I think I should go to bed now. I have class in the morning.
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2009-03-16, 00:04 | Link #9 | |
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First season, episode 22. (20-21 possibly) Second season, ep16[11:51] Last edited by evilr00t; 2009-03-16 at 01:00. Reason: add after story reference |
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2009-03-16, 00:08 | Link #10 | |
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2009-03-16, 00:10 | Link #11 |
Name means little...
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You need Quantum Mechanics-fu, Spectacular_Insanity.
Spoiler for excerpt of AS ep 16:
Existance of IW is not bound by the time and space of the clannad normal universe as it is a localized system which stands on its own, although connected to the original clannadverse. I tried to explain why that is so in a few posts over the episode 22 discussion thread. (although it seems now that it's mostly a 'wha...?' response)
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Last edited by panzerfan; 2009-03-16 at 00:26. |
2009-03-16, 00:21 | Link #12 | |
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2009-03-16, 00:32 | Link #13 | |
Ha ha ha ha ha...
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Well, as they say, hindsight is 20/20. At least I know NOW, if that even means anything anymore.
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2009-03-16, 03:33 | Link #16 | ||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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As implied in lots instances, Tomoya KNEW already about the illusionary world when Nagisa mentions about her tale, it even creeped him out as he seriously has a "deja vu" feeling, though Sanae and Akio fail to see what he is talking about. Furthermore, Tomoya also had a chilling flashback of the IW in the snow, implying more and more about his "previous life". Since the Illusionary World was created by Ushio, there is no way this story could be the first loop, as Ushio had to die first. Ergo, she already existed, but be it anime or game wise, we don't know "when", and using Kotomi's explanation, there is no way to tell how many loops it has happened. All of these facts are taken from the ANIME and interpreted like this, thanks to Tomoya and Akio comments. There is no need for game knowledge here, but it certainly needed a second watching. Ergo, Tomoya had fun time with hellish misfortune until he got these light orbs.
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2009-03-16, 04:07 | Link #17 |
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I think that just the fact that we all have to be here rationalizing and interpreting what happened with regard to Tomoya's journeys through alternate dimensions means that it probably could have been brought across a whole lot better in the anime.
Spoiler for Higurashi No Naku Koro Ni:
And even setting all of the above aside, it still doesn't alleviate the fact that the mysticism involved in the story and the themes of family ties don't exactly merge together to form a complete whole like they could have and that the idea that one can find a new way to honour the memory of a loved one, right their downward spiral, and start a new life competes with the idea that ones fate is semi-predetermined because of a pact made with a town carrying over to a new host. In fact I'd continue to argue that they clash with one another to a point where the shows themes ultimately end up becoming less then sum of it's parts. |
2009-03-16, 06:05 | Link #18 | |
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2009-03-16, 08:04 | Link #19 |
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Please elaborate, if this is for discussion of the sometimes confusing ending, fine, but if this is another one of your thinly veiled attacks on the show for which I have no time for, I am going to have to ask you to stop and take it somewhere else. I did not open this thread just so you could have another excuse to attack the show.
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2009-03-16, 11:38 | Link #20 | |
Ha ha ha ha ha...
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I swear that this series has become work just to understand.
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