Fandom mimicry

[cyth]

Here's a thought - are western hardcore anime fans zombies who gravitate towards trends and whims of the Japanese fandom OR have we acquired their taste?

For as big as western anime communities are, I would like to think our fan cultures have become forks in their own right. Putting Shounen Jump titles aside, take a look at the communities you participate in - we worship the same hot-this-moment seiyuu as the Japanese do, we buy the same character goods, Touhou is the bomb, rarely or never do we have a hit niche title that wouldn't be popular in Japan.

There are a couple of practices that are unique to western fandoms, like American-style anime cons and AMVs, but the list ends there. My idea is that Western hardcore fans want the same fan experience as the Japanese fans instead of putting effort into making their own.

While it's all fine and dandy that we like anime for the same things the Japanese like them, thus appreciating them for things that were created in thought with, it feels as if western fandoms have gone creatively bankrupt. Am I not seeing more things that make our fandom unique?

[Ichihara Asako]

As a whole, I'd agree. There are differences, but generally only subtle ones in specific cases. By large, western fandom is just a clone of Japanese. The same moe shows get the spotlight for the same reasons, while other shows are largely shunned for not having enough fan service and such.

Ultimately, I don't think it's a bad thing. I like to think of fandom as fandom, without throwing in an "us and them" divide. I really find such unnecessary. Though I may have a slightly different perspective on the whole matter for numerous reasons. But I don't see why we need to treat fans from different places differently. That just leads to region codes on DVDs and bluray, and blocks on streams. It's unproductive and annoying.

[roriconfan]

Is this topic about comparing west and east fandoms? I don't find any differences. I mean, anime began by imitating cartoons and along the way followed their own path. Now cartoons are those that imitate anime as apparently the same old masked heroes formula for over 90 years is no longer appealing that much.

Other than that, I don't think a trekkie is better or worse than a haruhist neither that one is copying the other.

[risingstar3110]

I actually thought about the topic multiple times in the past. What i got in the end was: since anime slowly became a form of entertainment for many internet communities; and as we follow the swarm of fandom, we are most likely to be entertained and satisfied more than by heading our own path. In another word, a good and popular show in Japan would easily become more enjoyable to us than an unpopular one. This is due to the amount of discussion, fanart , amvs(the later two mostly come from Japan), and other sources of fan devotes . Then of course there are official things like new seasons, ova, figures, etc as well.

Hyakko for example, is one of my top favourite. But the amount of entertainment it bring is limited in the 14 episodes. While in the same time, the only limitation of Haruhi franchises are KyoAni official releases

[karice67]

@cyth
I'm not quite following you. You hope that "our fan cultures have become forks in their own right" but follow by noting aspects where Western fandom agrees with the Japanese fandom?

As for the things you mention...

(1) seiyuu: how in the world did Saiga Mitsuki get the overseas fan award? She's quite popular, certainly, but would never have won a straight-out popularity award here.

(2) character goods: I wasn't aware the West actually produced their own character goods. (They definitely don't produce what I want...) As for models, posters etc, there is a pretty strong culture of such toys from American shows and idols, so I'm not sure there can be much more variety.

(3) There are actually pretty significant differences in tastes. For example, Evangelion, Ghost in the Shell and Akira aren't quite as popular in Japan as they are in the West. As a friend explained to me, anime that try to say too much (philosophically, environmentally etc) don't fair too well with the casual anime viewer, who usually prefers an escapist show without any real world message for the audience. Case in point: Spirited Away's allusion to the pollution of Japanese rivers is apparently considered to be too overbearing here. Another thing I've noticed is that more Western fans have problems with Code Geass and certain Gundam series, whilst Japanese fans are, on the whole, more positive about them.

As for other aspects of the fandom. Fanart doesn't seem to be much different, but cosplay definitely is. In Japan, you only ever cosplay a character if you can pull it off - i.e. you have the right dimensions for it. In my convention going experience in Australia, this has most definitely not been the case...

These differences may be obvious only if you actually experience the fandom in Japan. I only discovered these, albeit slight, differences sometime after I started living here about three years ago. Before then, moe also wasn't that big in Australia, where I was studying, at least not to the extent that I'm seeing it here now. Perhaps I simply wasn't aware of it until I came here. Whatever the case, I expect that I'll find out when I "rejoin" the Western fandom sometime in the near future...

[cyth]

Originally Posted by karice67

You hope that "our fan cultures have become forks in their own right" but follow by noting aspects where Western fandom agrees with the Japanese fandom?

I probably wasn't clear enough. Yes, I would like to think our fandoms went separate ways, but the fact is they didn't, especially when we talk about hardcore internet fandom.

As for the things you mention...

(1) seiyuu: how in the world did Saiga Mitsuki get the overseas fan award? She's quite popular, certainly, but would never have won a straight-out popularity award here.

This is quite easy to explain. The contest is rigged. Popularity vote doesn't have the final say anyway. I doubt fandom as a whole knows this person even exists as she usually plays side characters. It is promotion by the companies who sponsor the contest.

(2) character goods: I wasn't aware the West actually produced their own character goods.

Western fans import the same stock character goods as the Japanese do, especially from companies like Good Smile Company and COSPA who have a strong hold of overseas suppliers.

(3) There are actually pretty significant differences in tastes. For example, Evangelion, Ghost in the Shell and Akira aren't quite as popular in Japan as they are in the West. As a friend explained to me, anime that try to say too much (philosophically, environmentally etc) don't fair too well with the casual anime viewer, who usually prefers an escapist show without any real world message for the audience. Case in point: Spirited Away's allusion to the pollution of Japanese rivers is apparently considered to be too overbearing here. Another thing I've noticed is that more Western fans have problems with Code Geass and certain Gundam series, whilst Japanese fans are, on the whole, more positive about them.

This is the meat of my argument and it's a topic worth of extensive discussion. It's hard for anyone to generalize really, but if I may start with titles already mentioned:

- Evangelion has attained a similar level of popularity in both regions.
- Ghost in the Shell and Akira actually have bigger popularity in the West than in Japan. However, as big as these titles are in the anime world, the popularity can be attributed to the fact that Japan doesn't have as many people as the rest of the world.
- Spirited Away is overbearing for me too, lol. It is a rant of a delusional old man disguised as pretentious quality animation.
- I don't think the west has problems with Code Geass, but for certain Gundam series I would agree. However, this can be attributed to poor western exposure of old Gundam titles. However, with SEED, 00 and Unicorn things have really started to pick up.

[Dhomochevsky]

In the end, most of us are just consumers.
There is a huge spectrum of anime, trends, styles etc to chose from all the time.
We just pick the parts we like and consume. If there is a trend we like, we jump on the bandwaggon, others get ignored. Huge trends are just a case of mass appeal then. In this respect, the bigger part of the japanese fanbase is the same as us westerners.
Of course we all like the same stuff on a very general level, otherwise we wouldn't be anime fans after all. So it's not a big surprise that certain things work well for almost all fans and get huge.

You are correct though, the japanese fans are the ones whose feedback actually matters. They are the ones setting the course for future anime development.
They are mainly voting with their money though. We would have the means to do that as well, but that's the old fansub discussion all over again i guess.
But as long as there are so many different things to chose from out there, iI personally dont care if they aren't tailored for my liking by the japanese industry. I will still find the bits I love so much.


The creative fangroups are a different thing though. You mentioned the whole Touhou-thing for example. I think the main problem here is simply the language barrier. For almost everything there will pop up an english translation at some point in time. But this means non japanese speaking fans are always lagging behind and cant contribute to new things at all.
Once they (we) are let in on the thing, its already old. Otherwise there is really no lack in creativity in the western fanbase. But they cant react quickly to new trends from the "source", so it may feel a bit zombie-like i guess.

[Master_Yoma]

Well fans are fans no matter where they are in the US or Japan or where ever you are at. But Japan have there anime right away unlike the US where we have to wait tell some one license it so only titles that have a chance to sell with get picked up. But Japan all so got specialty stores that deal in anime the US I dont know if there are any since I dont live in a big city I wouldnt know if there are any. So fandom can be more wider then and can have more taste or there then here. But as for Touhou there was ova anime of that and it was good but I think it didnt get a series yet it mite be there is way to many characters to have a good start since some people like other characters more then most like me with Ran Yakumo

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

I think the main problem here is simply the language barrier. For almost everything there will pop up an english translation at some point in time. But this means non japanese speaking fans are always lagging behind and cant contribute to new things at all.

See, I really don't get this need for playing constant catch up. What if our fandom simply took something and just ran with it, disregarding the "progress" made by Japanese fans?

[brocko]

Hellsing apparently wasn't as big in Japan as it was in the West. That was pretty much the main reason why they made the OVA's if what I've been informed is indeed correct.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by cyth

Here's a thought - are western hardcore anime fans zombies who gravitate towards trends and whims of the Japanese fandom OR have we acquired their taste?

I love how the implication is "Hardcore online fans have the same taste as the Japanese" when that's only half true. It's not even really half true. This is just the same trend followers as you get in any pop culture type thing for the most part. However, not everything clicks with outside fans as there are shows that are popular in Japan but nobody in the west will have ever heard of them. Likewise, there is stuff that clicks with western fans much more than Japanese fans. The problem is Japan has stopped producing those due to the present situation.

Am I not seeing more things that make our fandom unique?

The idea that both fandoms are even close to the same is laughable at best. As big as that group of wannabe Japanese people is, they are just that in the end, wannabes.

Originally Posted by cyth

Western fans import the same stock character goods as the Japanese do, especially from companies like Good Smile Company and COSPA who have a strong hold of overseas suppliers.

Not really. There is a unimaginable difference in product availability between the two regions. COSPA stuff usually requires hunting it down online* while GSC is distributed through AAA and is thus pretty easy to find. As for the rest that is available at a convention, it's 1/2 JP based direct imports and 1/2 US based things and you can tell a difference as there is a huge difference between what the two cultures want with only a small bit of overlap.

*Most of their stuff is unavailable unless you live in Japan or use a proxy.

- Evangelion has attained a similar level of popularity in both regions.

Evangelion is infinitely bigger in Japan than it will ever be outside.

I've seen US:Star Wars::JP:Evangelion listed as the proper scale level.

[Ithekro]

There may not be large differences, but Western anime fans have there own tangents from time to time...though some may be just as popular in Japan. Say the Genderbending of Haruhi Suzumiya. There is fanart in Japan and other products. In the West (here) there is a massive forum rewriting the novels to fit the genderbent characters, plus a large Visual Novel project in the works...and other story tangents from time to time.

Another difference is on the subject of moe tournaments. The results of a moe tournament tend to be different depending on which region is voting. For Japan the winners tend to be loli, in Korea the winners tend to be tsundere, in the US the pattern varies from year to year (though the main US based tournament is international, so the voting pool in now split between the US, Korea, and China, with Europe and the rest of Asia filling in most of the rest).

There are also some parts of fandom that have crossed the lines in the other direction. Take two cartoons that are now considered anime: Transformers and Star Wars the Clone Wars. Transformers as a series started in the US (based on various Japanese toys lines that were combined to a greater whole). It seems popular enough that the Japanese took if over after the America cartoon run ended and kept going....even today after series have been made in the US, Japan, and Canada. As for the Clones Wars...is has been redubbed in Japanese and airs in Japan as an anime. I can't say if it is popular or not...but it is Star Wars.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Evangelion is infinitely bigger in Japan than it will ever be outside.

I've seen US:Star Wars::JP:Evangelion listed as the proper scale level.

Hm...personally, I think a Star Wars comparison is too early. I'd be more inclined to say

• Star Wars - Gundam
• Star Trek - Evangelion

But even that isn't really accurate, because, popular as Gundam and Evangelion may be amongst anime fans, the films are only broadcast at specialist cinemas. The second Eva film had a grand total of two screenings in Okinawa, though both of them sold out pretty quickly.

Oh, and I think I may have seen Clone Wars merchandise in animate...though not a whole lot of it.

[Slice of Life]

I couldn't say what the average oversees fan likes or dislikes and I think the anime fandom is too diverse to even talk about an "average" fan in any useful way. Many (most) anime fans here don't buy merchandise at all, couldn't care less about who voices whom (and generally stay clear of the whole idol business) and might not even know what Touhou is.

And how can we put "Shounen Jump titles aside" and say Miyazaki is "too overbearing" when these, are, like them or not, the superpowers of anime.

[Alex Keller]

Originally Posted by cyth

Here's a thought - are western hardcore anime fans zombies who gravitate towards trends and whims of the Japanese fandom OR have we acquired their taste?

For as big as western anime communities are, I would like to think our fan cultures have become forks in their own right. Putting Shounen Jump titles aside, take a look at the communities you participate in - we worship the same hot-this-moment seiyuu as the Japanese do, we buy the same character goods, Touhou is the bomb, rarely or never do we have a hit niche title that wouldn't be popular in Japan.

There are a couple of practices that are unique to western fandoms, like American-style anime cons and AMVs, but the list ends there. My idea is that Western hardcore fans want the same fan experience as the Japanese fans instead of putting effort into making their own.

While it's all fine and dandy that we like anime for the same things the Japanese like them, thus appreciating them for things that were created in thought with, it feels as if western fandoms have gone creatively bankrupt. Am I not seeing more things that make our fandom unique?

Fandom in general is like this.
Western, Eastern, etc.
Tis why I say Art should be esoteric.
Only for aesthetes.