AnimeSuki Forums

Ero-Senn1n · 2004-10-07, 13:35

I have two theories about the Naruto story after reading the manga.

First is about the valley of the end. Two great ninjas fought there. I think that were the First and the Second. They founded the greatest village and ended an era of chaos together.
In the manga currently there is only one Hokage at the time but it seems that the 1st and 2nd ruled together before the 3rd. My theory is they were like Naruto and Sasuke, and were able to make history by joining their forces. As we know from the Haku chapters the advanced bloodlines were hated by the people of the naruto universe. I think its because lots of those used their powers to abuse the normal people. And then the 2 guys (1st and 2nd) changed that, and founded the ruling central power of this world. And the 3rd and 4th inherited their will, while the evil guys like orochimaru, itachi and the akatsuki represent the old world, for which the ninjas were hated for. So destroying the Leaf means destroying this world, which was the dream of the 1st and 2nd hokages. Orochimaru was not chosen for Hokage becouse he had not shared this dream of the founders. It seems that the bad guys now are more powerful, and i think the only way to win against them will be the power of the united Naruto+Sasuke duo. I guess that is what Kakashi said in chapter 234.

Other thing is the Uchiha legend. It seems that the mangaka realy liked the Dragon Ball series. There we have the super-saiyaman legend, it seems it is the same as the Mange-legend of the Uchiha. We see in the manga that Uchiha father is always talking about the little brother, that means he thinks that he will be that Super-uchiha some day. I think Itachi realized this, and was really angry about that, because he was the most powerful, and with the passing of time he began to hate his family. I think he tried to show his powers to his father so that he acknoledges him as the best, but his father just talking about little brother and was believing in that script in the uchiha-shrine. So he left his little brother to live just because he wants to prove that he is the Super-Uchiha and he is more powerful than his brother, it must be his obsession. It seems that the messages in the uchiha-shrine are not unambiguous, and the family members interpreted it in different ways. So i think Sasuke will gain his mange capability while defending Naruto, and those two will carry on the will of the founders.

Well i hope the manga will proceed according to these theories

Forgive my bad english

ssjian1 · 2004-10-07, 15:34

I like your theory.

Seeing as how Naruto does use some traits of Dragonball Z, I wouldn't be surprised if one day down the road Naruto and Sasuke become a team. I'd love to see that.

Lost World · 2004-10-07, 16:37

Wow, that's a really good theory.

UserName · 2004-10-07, 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssjian1

I like your theory.

Seeing as how Naruto does use some traits of Dragonball Z, I wouldn't be surprised if one day down the road Naruto and Sasuke become a team. I'd love to see that.

If that's the case and I hope it is if it goes by that... then Sasuke will eventually betray Naruto somewhere along the line and by doing that it causes some trouble and Sasuke eventually dies...

But the way it is now. Sasuke and Naruto will never stop being rivals for I think someoen is going to die before the series ends. It's not a bad theory but I don't think that will happen...

Veritas · 2004-10-07, 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssjian1

I wouldn't be surprised if one day down the road Naruto and Sasuke become a team.

It wouldn't surprise me either. In fact, I bet they'd be called Team 7.

LunaNeko · 2004-10-08, 00:04

Cool thinking...I also think that Sasuke will take a longer path to come to realization that his true power will appear when he will protect someone he cares about. Very possibly Naruto from Itachi...but who knows...
But it would be cool that he would eventually kill Itachi, not because of the clan, but protecting Naruto, it would make sense and would fit into these series message.

Ero-Senn1n · 2004-10-08, 04:51

It's not good to compare Naruto to DB/DBZ, Naruto is much more complex. In BDZ the question of power was so one-dimensional, they even had some devices where there was ONE number that indicated how powerful somebody is. That's simply dumb when we compare it to Naruto. Here we have a least 3 dimensions of power: taijutsu, genjutsu, ninjutsu. And you have to master all of these to be effective in a fight. Could say that DBZ is a world where we have only taijutsu

This means that if Naruto was for example much better in ninjutsu and taijutsu than Kabuto, he would still lose in one second becouse he is dumb for genjutsu, just remember when Kabuto did his sleeping-genjutsu and Naruto was sleeping like a baby

There are a lot of threads here about who is more powerful, and who would win in a fight based on other fights. I think these people wathed too much DBZ, thats not so simple here. To be the best Hokage somebody needs to be on high level from all 3 kinds of jutsu, and the 3rd was the one that did it (and probably the 4th also). And learning it does not mean that he can perform that on high level, it means that he can at least counter that, thus rendering that jutsu ineffective against him.
Based on the Kage fight (on the rooftop) we can see that the 1st is really good at taijutsu, probably the best hokage at taijutsu, that comes from his advanced bloodline, and we can see the bloodline in work when Tsunade fights. Tsunade was able to open the ground with one punch. And we see in chapter 234 as the legend says the ground was formed from the fight, i assume the 1st hit the ground and that formed the scar for the river.
We could see from the fight that 2nd was really good at genjutsu, he used a genjutsu that was effective against the 3rd, so i assume the 2nd was the best genjutsu hokage. In ninjutsu both of them were on high level. The 2nd was doing high level water jutsu in a place with no water, that means in a place with water like the valley of end he was probably awesome. And so their fight could easily create that waterfall.
So the 1st and 2nd were a perfect team, they complemented each other in jutsus, just like Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto will never reach the level of genjutsu that Sasuke can, and Sasuke will never do such high level ninjutsu as Naruto, so they can be a perfect hokage team against the akatsuki+oro.

mindspank · 2004-10-08, 06:00

Nice theory there. The only objection I could have is that the theory about why Itachi killed his family doesn't make much sense -- I guess we will get this figured out later on in the series and that it has something to do with the Uchica scroll.

Satoru · 2004-10-08, 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Based on the Kage fight (on the rooftop) we can see that the 1st is really good at taijutsu, probably the best hokage at taijutsu, that comes from his advanced bloodline, and we can see the bloodline in work when Tsunade fights. Tsunade was able to open the ground with one punch. And we see in chapter 234 as the legend says the ground was formed from the fight, i assume the 1st hit the ground and that formed the scar for the river.
We could see from the fight that 2nd was really good at genjutsu, he used a genjutsu that was effective against the 3rd, so i assume the 2nd was the best genjutsu hokage. In ninjutsu both of them were on high level. The 2nd was doing high level water jutsu in a place with no water, that means in a place with water like the valley of end he was probably awesome. And so their fight could easily create that waterfall.
So the 1st and 2nd were a perfect team, they complemented each other in jutsus, just like Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto will never reach the level of genjutsu that Sasuke can, and Sasuke will never do such high level ninjutsu as Naruto, so they can be a perfect hokage team against the akatsuki+oro.

Actually, it was the 1st who used the genjutsu. It's switched around in the anime...don't ask me why. Anyway, who said that the 1st's enemy was the 2nd? The statue doesn't look like the Nidaime...not at all. I think that's a huge misunderstanding.

MysticNinjaJay · 2004-10-08, 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by mindspank

Nice theory there. The only objection I could have is that the theory about why Itachi killed his family doesn't make much sense -- I guess we will get this figured out later on in the series and that it has something to do with the Uchica scroll.

Itachi's own explanation for killing the clan was to test his own strength and also that there is some Uchiha prophecy that three Uchiha would inherit the mangekyo Sharingan. I don't think Kakashi is one of them as he doesn't have the bloodline its like a genetic trait you must have in your DNA. That leaves the possibility that someone other than Sasuke survived or a future Uchiha may be born someday. So since so many top level Uchiha have Sharingan killing all save himself, Sasuke and possibly another must be a way to fulfill that prophecy.

CyberPunk · 2004-10-08, 07:16

there's no prophecy, he just saw the potential in sasuke(the firey will to surpass itachi, and after the massacre, the extreme hatred to kill him) to do what it takes to get the mangekyou sharingan. then he said that including himself and the future sasuke, there will be 3 people capable of using it; which means the other user was still alive at the time. i really don't like the introduction of another uchiha, it kinda ruins a dynamic of sasuke being the last one, but i hope kishi suprises me somehow.

MysticNinjaJay · 2004-10-08, 07:21

3 mangekyo users was the prophecy he said the scrolls predicted it himself and told Sasuke to look at them for the proof. Thats a prophecy if I've ever heard one. Also at the time Sasuke seemed more frightened than angry and hateful to Itachi. That fear of the experience manifested into hate that wasn't seen by Itachi until they met in the hotel, although he knew it would be there. Thats why he told him to live a life full of hatred. The 3rd user also doesn't have to be alive as its a future event. To make another Uchiha all Sasuke or Itachi have to do is get it on with a girl, who herself doesn't have to be an Uchiha. But I do think there is a 3rd somewhere if what Itachi said is true which I agree does hurt the dynamic abit.

CyberPunk · 2004-10-08, 07:26

dude, there was no prophecy. the shrine was were they kept all the secrets pertaining to their bloodline. on the scrolls was written what the original purpose of the sharingan was and how to achieve it. itachi then said that if sasuke were to "open his eyes to the truth"(meaning to go read the scroll and understand the evil purpose it possibly served), he'd know all about the mangekyou and attaining it. now along with itachi and sasuke, itachi said that 3 people could handle the eye. the third person hasn't been introduced yet. i don't know where you got prophecy from.

Edit: blast, you edited your post.

of course at the time he was frightened, he thought he was going to die. but before that, itachi saw sasuke working very hard to get equal with itachi so that his father would recognize him. he knew exactly how sasuke would react to the massacre(devote his life to surpassing him and avenging the clan), so he spared him and left him with those kind words to replay in his head every day. if the 3rd user was alive then, it's very probable that they are still alive in the present. otherwise, for the story's sake, why even mention the possibility of the 3rd user?

hokagenaruto3 · 2004-10-08, 07:28

In the Hokage fight, the 1th seemed stronger than the second, because the second did a high level suiton Jutsu out of air, but the 1th made an unblockable genjutsu and an unblockable Ninjutsu. I didn't see the 3th using "KAI" against that genjutsu the 1th used, I don't think you can counter it. it puts you in a great advantage.

The Jukai Koudan used by the 1th seemed unstoppable as well. Only the 1th could use it and the 3th couldn't help being cought (I don't see how any one could).

BTW the statue wasn't the 2nd, no way it was. He looks completely different, but the other one's the 1th for sure.

But here's the question: Kakashi said Naruto and Sasuke were like the 2 warriors, but who was who. Was Naruto more like the 1th or the other warrior?

Satoru · 2004-10-08, 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

3 mangekyo users was the prophecy he said the scrolls predicted it himself and told Sasuke to look at them for the proof. Thats a prophecy if I've ever heard one. Also at the time Sasuke seemed more frightened than angry and hateful to Itachi. That fear of the experience manifested into hate that wasn't seen by Itachi until they met in the hotel, although he knew it would be there. Thats why he told him to live a life full of hatred.

CyberPunk is right. There is no prophecy. We don't know what's written on the scrolls, but it's about the true purpose of the sharingan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hokagenaruto3

Kakashi said Naruto and Sasuke were like the 2 warriors, but who was who. Was Naruto more like the 1th or the other warrior?

Obviously Naruto is like the 1st. He is the future hokage. Plus Sasuke went to the other side. Naruto will go home to the Leaf.

Ero-Senn1n · 2004-10-08, 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Satoru

Actually, it was the 1st who used the genjutsu. It's switched around in the anime...don't ask me why. Anyway, who said that the 1st's enemy was the 2nd? The statue doesn't look like the Nidaime...not at all. I think that's a huge misunderstanding.

Ohh i thought it based on the anime, but than there is an error in the anime. The statues may represent the young shinobi, before they became hokages. And apart from that genjutsu thing the theory may be valid. Who said Naruto's enemy is Sasuke, i never said that, they are just rivals. But it seems Kakashi knows much more about the story of those two guys than he says on that manga page, it will surely be explained some day.

The question is if the 1st and 2nd were Hokage at the same time or the 1st retired? But why would he retire, from the anime I get that they were about the same age. If the statue is not the first two Hokages than the manga will intoduce 2 powerful ninjas who are well known to Kakashi, but are already dead, maybe will there will be a flashback or something. But i still bet on the 1st and 2nd

MysticNinjaJay · 2004-10-08, 07:36

I'm just saying it didn't say it "was" a prophecy but anytime you predict a future event you know is going to come true its a prophecy. And we don't know what that scroll said about the Sharingan exactly. We know its a secret and its contains everything Itachi said other than that it isn't clear but its defnitely something for a future story arc. And if Itachi says 3 people are destined to inherit the mangekyo what does that sound like to you? A guess?

CyberPunk · 2004-10-08, 07:45

you said the scrolls prophesied the emergence of 3 mangekyou users, which is wrong. he spoke of no destiny, just the possibility. destinies tend to be absolute truths, and judging from the last chapter, it looks like sasuke has completely shut down the idea of getting the mangekyou, which i doubt he ever planned on getting from the beginning of the story. and yes, it sounds exactly like a guess because he spoke of possibility.

MysticNinjaJay · 2004-10-08, 07:52

I said Itachi prophesied that there would be 3 users and that we don't know what the scrolls contain but I read the chapter over and yes it is a bit hasty to say that that was a prophecy in and of itself because he didn't say there "will" be 3 mangekyo users he said 3 are capable of using it. He's definetly alluding to something but I guess we don't know enough yet to say for sure what he meant.

CyberPunk · 2004-10-08, 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

3 mangekyo users was the prophecy he said the scrolls predicted it himself and told Sasuke to look at them for the proof. Thats a prophecy if I've ever heard one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShurikenJay

I said Itachi prophesied that there would be 3 users and that we don't know what the scrolls contain...

sorry if i'm coming off like an asshole, but whatever. :P

2004-10-07, 13:35	Link #1
Ero-Senn1n Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Hidden Village of Sake	Theories after manga chapter 234 I have two theories about the Naruto story after reading the manga. First is about the valley of the end. Two great ninjas fought there. I think that were the First and the Second. They founded the greatest village and ended an era of chaos together. In the manga currently there is only one Hokage at the time but it seems that the 1st and 2nd ruled together before the 3rd. My theory is they were like Naruto and Sasuke, and were able to make history by joining their forces. As we know from the Haku chapters the advanced bloodlines were hated by the people of the naruto universe. I think its because lots of those used their powers to abuse the normal people. And then the 2 guys (1st and 2nd) changed that, and founded the ruling central power of this world. And the 3rd and 4th inherited their will, while the evil guys like orochimaru, itachi and the akatsuki represent the old world, for which the ninjas were hated for. So destroying the Leaf means destroying this world, which was the dream of the 1st and 2nd hokages. Orochimaru was not chosen for Hokage becouse he had not shared this dream of the founders. It seems that the bad guys now are more powerful, and i think the only way to win against them will be the power of the united Naruto+Sasuke duo. I guess that is what Kakashi said in chapter 234. Other thing is the Uchiha legend. It seems that the mangaka realy liked the Dragon Ball series. There we have the super-saiyaman legend, it seems it is the same as the Mange-legend of the Uchiha. We see in the manga that Uchiha father is always talking about the little brother, that means he thinks that he will be that Super-uchiha some day. I think Itachi realized this, and was really angry about that, because he was the most powerful, and with the passing of time he began to hate his family. I think he tried to show his powers to his father so that he acknoledges him as the best, but his father just talking about little brother and was believing in that script in the uchiha-shrine. So he left his little brother to live just because he wants to prove that he is the Super-Uchiha and he is more powerful than his brother, it must be his obsession. It seems that the messages in the uchiha-shrine are not unambiguous, and the family members interpreted it in different ways. So i think Sasuke will gain his mange capability while defending Naruto, and those two will carry on the will of the founders. Well i hope the manga will proceed according to these theories Forgive my bad english

2004-10-07, 15:34	Link #2
ssjian1 Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2004	I like your theory. Seeing as how Naruto does use some traits of Dragonball Z, I wouldn't be surprised if one day down the road Naruto and Sasuke become a team. I'd love to see that.

2004-10-07, 16:37	Link #3
Lost World Banned Join Date: Dec 2003	Wow, that's a really good theory.

2004-10-08, 00:04	Link #6
LunaNeko Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004	Cool thinking...I also think that Sasuke will take a longer path to come to realization that his true power will appear when he will protect someone he cares about. Very possibly Naruto from Itachi...but who knows... But it would be cool that he would eventually kill Itachi, not because of the clan, but protecting Naruto, it would make sense and would fit into these series message.

2004-10-08, 04:51	Link #7
Ero-Senn1n Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Hidden Village of Sake	It's not good to compare Naruto to DB/DBZ, Naruto is much more complex. In BDZ the question of power was so one-dimensional, they even had some devices where there was ONE number that indicated how powerful somebody is. That's simply dumb when we compare it to Naruto. Here we have a least 3 dimensions of power: taijutsu, genjutsu, ninjutsu. And you have to master all of these to be effective in a fight. Could say that DBZ is a world where we have only taijutsu This means that if Naruto was for example much better in ninjutsu and taijutsu than Kabuto, he would still lose in one second becouse he is dumb for genjutsu, just remember when Kabuto did his sleeping-genjutsu and Naruto was sleeping like a baby There are a lot of threads here about who is more powerful, and who would win in a fight based on other fights. I think these people wathed too much DBZ, thats not so simple here. To be the best Hokage somebody needs to be on high level from all 3 kinds of jutsu, and the 3rd was the one that did it (and probably the 4th also). And learning it does not mean that he can perform that on high level, it means that he can at least counter that, thus rendering that jutsu ineffective against him. Based on the Kage fight (on the rooftop) we can see that the 1st is really good at taijutsu, probably the best hokage at taijutsu, that comes from his advanced bloodline, and we can see the bloodline in work when Tsunade fights. Tsunade was able to open the ground with one punch. And we see in chapter 234 as the legend says the ground was formed from the fight, i assume the 1st hit the ground and that formed the scar for the river. We could see from the fight that 2nd was really good at genjutsu, he used a genjutsu that was effective against the 3rd, so i assume the 2nd was the best genjutsu hokage. In ninjutsu both of them were on high level. The 2nd was doing high level water jutsu in a place with no water, that means in a place with water like the valley of end he was probably awesome. And so their fight could easily create that waterfall. So the 1st and 2nd were a perfect team, they complemented each other in jutsus, just like Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto will never reach the level of genjutsu that Sasuke can, and Sasuke will never do such high level ninjutsu as Naruto, so they can be a perfect hokage team against the akatsuki+oro.

2004-10-08, 06:00	Link #8
mindspank Ero-Sennin Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Sweden Age: 38	Nice theory there. The only objection I could have is that the theory about why Itachi killed his family doesn't make much sense -- I guess we will get this figured out later on in the series and that it has something to do with the Uchica scroll.

2004-10-08, 07:16	Link #11
CyberPunk Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004	there's no prophecy, he just saw the potential in sasuke(the firey will to surpass itachi, and after the massacre, the extreme hatred to kill him) to do what it takes to get the mangekyou sharingan. then he said that including himself and the future sasuke, there will be 3 people capable of using it; which means the other user was still alive at the time. i really don't like the introduction of another uchiha, it kinda ruins a dynamic of sasuke being the last one, but i hope kishi suprises me somehow.

2004-10-08, 07:21	Link #12
MysticNinjaJay Ninja Emperor Join Date: Oct 2004 Age: 39	3 mangekyo users was the prophecy he said the scrolls predicted it himself and told Sasuke to look at them for the proof. Thats a prophecy if I've ever heard one. Also at the time Sasuke seemed more frightened than angry and hateful to Itachi. That fear of the experience manifested into hate that wasn't seen by Itachi until they met in the hotel, although he knew it would be there. Thats why he told him to live a life full of hatred. The 3rd user also doesn't have to be alive as its a future event. To make another Uchiha all Sasuke or Itachi have to do is get it on with a girl, who herself doesn't have to be an Uchiha. But I do think there is a 3rd somewhere if what Itachi said is true which I agree does hurt the dynamic abit.

2004-10-08, 07:26	Link #13
CyberPunk Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004	dude, there was no prophecy. the shrine was were they kept all the secrets pertaining to their bloodline. on the scrolls was written what the original purpose of the sharingan was and how to achieve it. itachi then said that if sasuke were to "open his eyes to the truth"(meaning to go read the scroll and understand the evil purpose it possibly served), he'd know all about the mangekyou and attaining it. now along with itachi and sasuke, itachi said that 3 people could handle the eye. the third person hasn't been introduced yet. i don't know where you got prophecy from. Edit: blast, you edited your post. of course at the time he was frightened, he thought he was going to die. but before that, itachi saw sasuke working very hard to get equal with itachi so that his father would recognize him. he knew exactly how sasuke would react to the massacre(devote his life to surpassing him and avenging the clan), so he spared him and left him with those kind words to replay in his head every day. if the 3rd user was alive then, it's very probable that they are still alive in the present. otherwise, for the story's sake, why even mention the possibility of the 3rd user?

2004-10-08, 07:28	Link #14
hokagenaruto3 Crescent & Star Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Amsterdam Age: 37	In the Hokage fight, the 1th seemed stronger than the second, because the second did a high level suiton Jutsu out of air, but the 1th made an unblockable genjutsu and an unblockable Ninjutsu. I didn't see the 3th using "KAI" against that genjutsu the 1th used, I don't think you can counter it. it puts you in a great advantage. The Jukai Koudan used by the 1th seemed unstoppable as well. Only the 1th could use it and the 3th couldn't help being cought (I don't see how any one could). BTW the statue wasn't the 2nd, no way it was. He looks completely different, but the other one's the 1th for sure. But here's the question: Kakashi said Naruto and Sasuke were like the 2 warriors, but who was who. Was Naruto more like the 1th or the other warrior?

2004-10-08, 07:36	Link #17
MysticNinjaJay Ninja Emperor Join Date: Oct 2004 Age: 39	I'm just saying it didn't say it "was" a prophecy but anytime you predict a future event you know is going to come true its a prophecy. And we don't know what that scroll said about the Sharingan exactly. We know its a secret and its contains everything Itachi said other than that it isn't clear but its defnitely something for a future story arc. And if Itachi says 3 people are destined to inherit the mangekyo what does that sound like to you? A guess?

2004-10-08, 07:45	Link #18
CyberPunk Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004	you said the scrolls prophesied the emergence of 3 mangekyou users, which is wrong. he spoke of no destiny, just the possibility. destinies tend to be absolute truths, and judging from the last chapter, it looks like sasuke has completely shut down the idea of getting the mangekyou, which i doubt he ever planned on getting from the beginning of the story. and yes, it sounds exactly like a guess because he spoke of possibility.

2004-10-08, 07:52	Link #19
MysticNinjaJay Ninja Emperor Join Date: Oct 2004 Age: 39	I said Itachi prophesied that there would be 3 users and that we don't know what the scrolls contain but I read the chapter over and yes it is a bit hasty to say that that was a prophecy in and of itself because he didn't say there "will" be 3 mangekyo users he said 3 are capable of using it. He's definetly alluding to something but I guess we don't know enough yet to say for sure what he meant.