About Shinn and Kira...

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Kira in Strike was great, especially his feats against the other four of the GAT-X series. Still, what Shinn did in Impulse to the entire EA fleet, his "tunnel rush" during the desert mission, fight with Auel, Orb forces annihilation and legendary Freedom pwnage... it was just plain awesome :]

Well, he fought against mostly grunts in that EA Fleet. So not much challenge, especially with the way CE grunts are. But, yeah, Shinn is a good pilot. Kira is just plain. . . better.

[Rising Dragon]

Shinn was an exceptional mobile suit pilot, but I think that's only because he had plenty of formal training in that area. Kira, on the other hand, was also an exceptional mobile suit pilot, but he didn't have any formal training beforehand. It pretty much came natural to him.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Well, he fought against mostly grunts in that EA Fleet. So not much challenge, especially with the way CE grunts are. But, yeah, Shinn is a good pilot. Kira is just plain. . . better.

Shinn also stood a chance against the three Extended, plus he killed one. And he fought Kira and beat him. Even if the fight was "uneven", Kira should not have just give in like this. It was his mistake. So he lost. Shinn may not be better than Kira in terms of potential and combat experience, but to me, he is undoubtedly a more memorable pilot in terms of combat tactics.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Shinn also stood a chance against the three Extended, plus he killed one. And he fought Kira and beat him. Even if the fight was "uneven", Kira should not have just give in like this. It was his mistake. So he lost. Shinn may not be better than Kira in terms of potential and combat experience, but to me, he is undoubtedly a more memorable pilot in terms of combat tactics.

But the combat tactics against Freedom were pointed out by Rey.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Neku

But the combat tactics against Freedom were pointed out by Rey.

Still, Shinn co-participated in the research and then executed it perfectly. Not mentioning his tactics on the desert in which he rushed through a tunnel. And many times in combat, he showed that he can use the environment to gain advantage over his oponents, such as the fore-mentioned hiding in the water to dodge beams.

[Neku]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Still, Shinn co-participated in the research and then executed it perfectly. Not mentioning his tactics on the desert in which he rushed through a tunnel. And many times in combat, he showed that he can use the environment to gain advantage over his oponents, such as the fore-mentioned hiding in the water to dodge beams.

He didn't co-participate - he was the 'researcher', but one who didn't manage to realize Kira's attack pattern.

By the way, I only pointed out the fact that he didn't figure out the combat tactics against Freedom; I am not suggesting that he has no tactics.

[NoOneKnowS]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Still, Shinn co-participated in the research and then executed it perfectly. Not mentioning his tactics on the desert in which he rushed through a tunnel. And many times in combat, he showed that he can use the environment to gain advantage over his oponents, such as the fore-mentioned hiding in the water to dodge beams.

Lets not forget Shinn was a trained soldier. Kira is not. And Kira was able to match the best pilots of Zaft using just his knowledge in programming and skill in piloting. And at desert, Kira is better. He adjusted his beam weapons right at the spot. Changed his MS settings at the spot while Shinn just sortied and killled gruntz. Kira faced Watfeld.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Neku

He didn't co-participate - he was the 'researcher', but one who didn't manage to realize Kira's attack pattern.

By the way, I only pointed out the fact that he didn't figure out the combat tactics against Freedom; I am not suggesting that he has no tactics.

I was talking about tactics overally, the ability of Shinn to "think" on the battlefield and outside of it, even if it is researching and sometimes just listening to new ways of defeating opponents.

Originally Posted by NoOneKnowS

Lets not forget Shinn was a trained soldier. Kira is not. And Kira was able to match the best pilots of Zaft using just his knowledge in programming and skill in piloting. And at desert, Kira is better. He adjusted his beam weapons right at the spot. Changed his MS settings at the spot while Shinn just sortied and killled gruntz. Kira faced Watfeld.

The difference between Shinn and Kira is that Kira did not receive proper training beforehand. Still, it doesn't change the fact that Strike Kira pushing the buttons or piercing daggers in a desperate final attack is much less of a memorable sight than Impulse Shinn pulling out a tunnel rush or hiding underwater or wiping out the entire EA fleet. So what they were grunts. It was powerful, it was expressive, it was cool.

[MooMooFarm]

T_T why is there such detailed discussion about CE battles still? Like, After 00 came out, as far as fight choreography goes, there's no going back. Any series nowadays owns CE's recycling bin. CE's main points that live on today are how their songs/BGM create some girly yet still appealing to most guys atmosphere while ghetto fights happen, that and the beautification of almost all the main characters and over-dramatization that CE's generation of anime was so famous for.

I mean, I really do want to talk about how baller Amuro Ray was or Char Aznable during Xth battle in the Yth minute of the episode, but like, even I pretty much accept without even watching it again that nostalgia ERASED ALL THOSE RECYCLED CRAP and that the fights are probably DIRT poor compared to what I hold to standard now.

I didn't truly believe in this, but then one day I youtubed Naruto, and rewatched Rock Lee vs Gaara. I couldn't believe I forgotten that it took 1-3 episodes of stupid backstory filler, and the fight scenes could no longer make me go WOAAAH HOLY CRAP back then. About the only thing left was how amazingly fitting the music was, which ironically is the most timeless part of any show as long as it reaches a certain standard. That and voice acting.

About the only crap that has to do with anime/games/etc that otakus love that still retained a super amazing fight choreograph and is still considered above the cut would be FF AC. That thing was dope. At the time, I couldn't even follow some of the movements due to the dark background. For people who don't even know FF, that movie must've been confusing as hell when Vincent showed up. WTF HAPPENED, SOMETHING RED FLEW BY, EH O.o yet it was really good =] and still is.

I recently watched this series called Seirei no Moribito, and that pretty much confirmed to me that REGARDLESS of how UNDETAILED or UNEMPHASIZING fighting is to a series (that series had less fights than half a season of 00 gundam vs gundam fights LOL), if the production budget is there, they WILL make it better than what we had back then. Nothing in fighting and battle is sacred. And if you can't hold onto the fighting images themselves, what else is there? OH KIRAS POWER LEVEL IS STILL HIGHER EVEN THOUGH I DONT GIVE A RATS ANUS ABOUT HOW THE SCENES ARE ANYMORE. That's like stating how Goku is still the best in DBZ when NO ONE CARES HOW HE CAN KAMEHAMEHA FOR THE 9000TH TIME.

But if you disagree, then ummm yeah. Feel free. I'm pretty OCD apparently, so I tend to move along. CE is still an amazing series, one of my favourites, but I'll be damned if I ever have to waste 5 minutes watching Impulse fly through the sky again and transform.

Oh and please don't bring strategy and tactics into this, cause Prince of Tennis has more strategy and tactics than CE. That's sad.

[Sir Dearka]

Spoiler for MooMooFarm's comment:

Originally Posted by MooMooFarm

T_T why is there such detailed discussion about CE battles still? Like, After 00 came out, as far as fight choreography goes, there's no going back. Any series nowadays owns CE's recycling bin. CE's main points that live on today are how their songs/BGM create some girly yet still appealing to most guys atmosphere while ghetto fights happen, that and the beautification of almost all the main characters and over-dramatization that CE's generation of anime was so famous for.

I mean, I really do want to talk about how baller Amuro Ray was or Char Aznable during Xth battle in the Yth minute of the episode, but like, even I pretty much accept without even watching it again that nostalgia ERASED ALL THOSE RECYCLED CRAP and that the fights are probably DIRT poor compared to what I hold to standard now.

I didn't truly believe in this, but then one day I youtubed Naruto, and rewatched Rock Lee vs Gaara. I couldn't believe I forgotten that it took 1-3 episodes of stupid backstory filler, and the fight scenes could no longer make me go WOAAAH HOLY CRAP back then. About the only thing left was how amazingly fitting the music was, which ironically is the most timeless part of any show as long as it reaches a certain standard. That and voice acting.

About the only crap that has to do with anime/games/etc that otakus love that still retained a super amazing fight choreograph and is still considered above the cut would be FF AC. That thing was dope. At the time, I couldn't even follow some of the movements due to the dark background. For people who don't even know FF, that movie must've been confusing as hell when Vincent showed up. WTF HAPPENED, SOMETHING RED FLEW BY, EH O.o yet it was really good =] and still is.

I recently watched this series called Seirei no Moribito, and that pretty much confirmed to me that REGARDLESS of how UNDETAILED or UNEMPHASIZING fighting is to a series (that series had less fights than half a season of 00 gundam vs gundam fights LOL), if the production budget is there, they WILL make it better than what we had back then. Nothing in fighting and battle is sacred. And if you can't hold onto the fighting images themselves, what else is there? OH KIRAS POWER LEVEL IS STILL HIGHER EVEN THOUGH I DONT GIVE A RATS ANUS ABOUT HOW THE SCENES ARE ANYMORE. That's like stating how Goku is still the best in DBZ when NO ONE CARES HOW HE CAN KAMEHAMEHA FOR THE 9000TH TIME.

But if you disagree, then ummm yeah. Feel free. I'm pretty OCD apparently, so I tend to move along. CE is still an amazing series, one of my favourites, but I'll be damned if I ever have to waste 5 minutes watching Impulse fly through the sky again and transform.

Oh and please don't bring strategy and tactics into this, cause Prince of Tennis has more strategy and tactics than CE. That's sad.

So you pretty much say we shouldn't discuss CE fights? Ok, got your POV. Now let us move on with our discussion and "sad" ramblings, shall we?

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Shinn also stood a chance against the three Extended, plus he killed one. And he fought Kira and beat him. Even if the fight was "uneven", Kira should not have just give in like this. It was his mistake. So he lost. Shinn may not be better than Kira in terms of potential and combat experience, but to me, he is undoubtedly a more memorable pilot in terms of combat tactics.

Kira had to face three "original" extendeds, who are better in fighting ability than the second-gen extendeds. They are just harder to order and have a limited fighting time, other than that, the first-gen extendeds are better. Yeah, Kira lost. I don't really care about that. You can have Amuro fight against Kamille to have more fun.

Combat tactics? Well, flashy does equal cool. I concur. But I still think that Athrun is the best in the CE universe. Kira is equal, I guess.

[jonli]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Kira had to face three "original" extendeds, who are better in fighting ability than the second-gen extendeds. They are just harder to order and have a limited fighting time, other than that, the first-gen extendeds are better. Yeah, Kira lost. I don't really care about that. You can have Amuro fight against Kamille to have more fun.

Combat tactics? Well, flashy does equal cool. I concur. But I still think that Athrun is the best in the CE universe. Kira is equal, I guess.

I never knew the second gen extendeds were weaker than the first...is this true?

However, even if a single second gen pilot is inferior to the first gen pilots, it is undeniable that their teamwork FAR exceeds that of the first generation.

And teamwork is far superior to an individual pilot's skills.

Even though I've pointed this out, Shinn would never stand a chance against Kira. Because, really, he's the ultimate coordinator.

[Aceywacey]

Well ... a second gen druggy did get pwnt by some grunts. Thats really bad.

I don't think any of the 1st gen druggys got pwnt by grunts, but by main characters

[Neku]

Originally Posted by jonli

I never knew the second gen extendeds were weaker than the first...is this true?

However, even if a single second gen pilot is inferior to the first gen pilots, it is undeniable that their teamwork FAR exceeds that of the first generation.

And teamwork is far superior to an individual pilot's skills.

Even though I've pointed this out, Shinn would never stand a chance against Kira. Because, really, he's the ultimate coordinator.

I can't remember whether they're weaker, but they're easier to control; if I'm not wrong.. whereas the first stage Extended were much more aggressive, and will not exactly obey orders.

But speaking about teamwork, I really don't see either the first or second stages demonstrating teamwork. Or maybe I forgot =p

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by Neku

I doubt anyone remembers the part where Kira slashed precisely across Yzak's beamsaber :/

Normally I'd remember something like that. I'll probably rewatch SEED when I get back from vacation, I recently watched the SEED movie compilations, and I think they may have soured me more than I should be towards CE.

Originally Posted by MooMooFarm

I mean, I really do want to talk about how baller Amuro Ray was or Char Aznable during Xth battle in the Yth minute of the episode, but like, even I pretty much accept without even watching it again that nostalgia ERASED ALL THOSE RECYCLED CRAP and that the fights are probably DIRT poor compared to what I hold to standard now.

The fights in Char's Counterattack are some of my favorites, and I watched that after watching 00 (or during the last few episodes, I forget).

[jonli]

Originally Posted by Neku

I can't remember whether they're weaker, but they're easier to control; if I'm not wrong.. whereas the first stage Extended were much more aggressive, and will not exactly obey orders.

But speaking about teamwork, I really don't see either the first or second stages demonstrating teamwork. Or maybe I forgot =p

They do demonstrate teamwork, just re-watch the first couple episodes again. Not only do they demonstrate teamwork, they also care for each other, and have an understanding of each others strengths and weaknesses.

This already proves that they're far superior than the original druggies that Kira faced. I would say Shinn is definitely not a bad pilot, it's just that he picked the wrong enemy (ultimate coordinator + new type).

[Aceywacey]

Originally Posted by jonli

They do demonstrate teamwork, just re-watch the first couple episodes again. Not only do they demonstrate teamwork, they also care for each other, and have an understanding of each others strengths and weaknesses.

This already proves that they're far superior than the original druggies that Kira faced. I would say Shinn is definitely not a bad pilot, it's just that he picked the wrong enemy (ultimate coordinator + new type).

Sorry dude, but that guy died to GRUNTS ... grunts .... that's the lowest you can go in Gundam

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by Aceywacey

Sorry dude, but that guy died to GRUNTS ... grunts .... that's the lowest you can go in Gundam

Grunts pretty much could learn too, you know. Kira in Strike would also be pwned by grunts in zakus and goufs if Lacus was not there and did not give him the new Freedom. Whilst Shinn was never losing to grunts in Impulse which, except for part shifting, was pretty much on the original-Strike-level in terms of powerfulness.

[jonli]

Originally Posted by Aceywacey

Sorry dude, but that guy died to GRUNTS ... grunts .... that's the lowest you can go in Gundam

I'm sorry I don't quite follow, are you talking about Sting?

He did get shot down by a Murasame if I recall correctly, but that's also an unfair judgement.

I believe the druggies were designed as a team, and obviously they were already weakened at that point in the series. Auel is dead, Stella kidnapped and was just retrieved. Obviously their usual trio tactic is no longer present, since Stella is suddenly forced to pilot a giant Gundam.

Then later on he was killed by the Shin and Rey, when he was in another Destroiy Gundam (if I recall correctly, please point me out if I'm wrong). At that point he's already by himself, the druggie team is basically dissolved.

The first generation druggies, got picked out within minutes once one of them were killed. Besides they occasionally attack each other, and never listen.

In an actual battle, communication and team work is a lot more important than individual skills. Gundam (being a real robot anime series) usually follows this formula, but of course GS/GSD is known to have irrational characters and an irrational plot.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by jonli

I'm sorry I don't quite follow, are you talking about Sting?

He did get shot down by a Murasame if I recall correctly, but that's also an unfair judgement.

I believe the druggies were designed as a team, and obviously they were already weakened at that point in the series. Auel is dead, Stella kidnapped and was just retrieved. Obviously their usual trio tactic is no longer present, since Stella is suddenly forced to pilot a giant Gundam.

Then later on he was killed by the Shin and Rey, when he was in another Destroiy Gundam (if I recall correctly, please point me out if I'm wrong). At that point he's already by himself, the druggie team is basically dissolved.

The first generation druggies, got picked out within minutes once one of them were killed. Besides they occasionally attack each other, and never listen.

In an actual battle, communication and team work is a lot more important than individual skills. Gundam (being a real robot anime series) usually follows this formula, but of course GS/GSD is known to have irrational characters and an irrational plot.

Second-gen extendeds did not really have teamwork as well.

They are hampered by the specifications of their mobile suits. Gaia can only be used in the ground, mostly, while Chaos specializes in Aerial Combat and Abyss is good in the Water. In space they can work better as a team, but they still fight individually basically...

So, in the end, the first-gen extendeds will be better as they are generally better in terms of combat ability.