2009-10-10, 07:45 | Link #2081 | |||
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With Endurance meaning "physical durability" and Defense meaning "special/magical defensive shielding", I have far less of an issue with your stat schematics. My main problem with Fate's low "Defense" stat schematic is that it struck me as saying that Fate was as fragile/unable to take a hit as a RPG bard. As a Fate fan, I decidedly didn't like the idea, lol. But since it doesn't mean that, I'll let this debate go. Quote:
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Subaru is a tank, though, so I can see Nanoha's point there.
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2009-10-10, 09:01 | Link #2082 |
Left for TFF
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When Nanoha went "no, no dodging" to Teana, she mainly went that "When in a group, your job as the middle support is to call shots, shoot enemies, warn allies, you can't do that if you're rolling on the ground like that."
Most of the mages in Nanoha don't dodge very much. *Points to Signum just standing there and armor tanking Fate's attacks in Nanoha As.* Seriously, that was just to show off. Though Fate was teaching Erio and Caro that since they aren't nearly as tough as Subaru or Teana that they need to learn how to dodge. Edit: To be fair to Nanoha's criticizing of Teana's rolling is actually something that Armed Forces in the US (Green Berets for example) frown upon as well. You're wasting time rolling around when you could just easily be shooting your enemy. Though Teana's rolling is a nod to some other Armed Forces in the world (Soviet Speznek for example) that train their units to be rolling and shooting.
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2009-10-10, 10:21 | Link #2084 | ||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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You know, I had a massive quote replying post tapped up, but then I did some digging and found the case closer.
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Well, the facts seem to argue your opinion. Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift is ranked AAA in power, whereas Divine Buster is an A+ ranked attack. So let's re-capture. Nanoha managed to defend herself against a AAA ranked attack without so much as a scratch on her body, whereas Fate was already exhausted and had her Barrier Jacket torn to shreds after being hit by an A+ attack. Nanoha's defense is quite simply more powerful than Fate's. Quote:
... But then, we already knew that. :3 |
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2009-10-10, 10:33 | Link #2085 | |
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I actually felt that Teana underestimated herself a fair bit in StrikerS. Granted, her pure offensive output might be the weakest of the team, but she has an excellent tactical head on her shoulders; possibly even greater than her superiors, frankly. I was impressed with many of the attack plans that Teana came up with; she's an ideal field commander.
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2009-10-10, 10:36 | Link #2086 |
Left for TFF
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I agree with the dodging. I think she'd be better off ducking for cover rather than rolling though, and I think that's what Nanoha was also trying to cover.
Plus, if you're too busy dodging, you're too busy to give cover fire, and that's no good.
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2009-10-10, 10:40 | Link #2087 | |||
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Look... if Fate has long-range power more or less on par with Nanoha, and crappy defense, then why would she choose to be a melee fighter, of all things? Is she simply suicidal? Top-notch long-range power combined with weak defense means you should be a long-range shooter, imo. Think of RPG games where you have a top-notch magic-caster with weak defense. Do you put them in the back of the formation, or on the front line? Quote:
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2009-10-10, 10:43 | Link #2088 |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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There's also the difference between close combat and ranged combat. In close combat dodging is preferred over blocking your opponents attacks (though this varies per weapon, some weapons are made to take advantage of blocking) Overall though, for most weaponry dodging is preferred, as blocking merely introduces a stalemate which can go either way, while dodging creates openings for you to take advantage off.
Ranged combat goes too fast. Dodge one bullet and the enemy already has a next one ready to fire. It doesn't create openings the same way close combat does. |
2009-10-10, 10:47 | Link #2089 | |
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2009-10-10, 10:56 | Link #2090 | |
Test Drive
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Teana makes up for her lack of power with her attack plans. There's a reason why her battle with Nove and Wendi is considered her Took A Level In Badass moment. It was incredible to see a girl who earlier in the season had doubted herself completely become strong enough and smart enough to take down her oppnonet while outnumbered. And injured.
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2009-10-10, 10:58 | Link #2092 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Where am I getting these rankings from? Right here. I can quote the relevant information bits if you like: Photon Lancer: Phalanx Shift. 使用者:フェイト・テスタロッサ 魔法ランク:AAA フォトンランサーのバリエーションにして、1期時点でのフェイトの最大攻撃魔法。 30発以上のフォトンスフィアより繰り出される、フォトンランサーの一点集中高速連射。 小説版によると、生成されるフォトンスフィアは38基。 ここから毎秒7発の斉射を4秒継続することで、合計1064発のフォトンランサーを目標に叩きつけることに なる。 メガミマガジンの設定資料での記載もほぼ同様で、継続時間の表記はないが『合計38基のフォトンスフィアか ら秒間7発の高速連射を行う「一斉射撃」』とされている。 フェイトの教育をしていたリニスが、機動力に頼りがちなフェイトの絶対防御対策として考案した 。 リニスがフェイトに手本として見せたときは発射体は20体に満たなかったが、フェイトに課した目標は最低3 0体の生成だった。 当初フェイトは3体までしか生成できず、本人も同時発動・制御が苦手だった。 しかし、そのためにリニスの作ったインテリジェントデバイス・バルディッシュを手にすることによって、この 魔法も完成に至った。(以上小説版) なのはのスターライトブレイカーほどではないが、この魔法も呪文詠唱にそれなりの時間が掛かるため、使いど ころはかなり難しい部類と言える。 本編中では、なのはをライトニングバインドで拘束して時間を稼いでいた。 また、フェイト自身の魔力を莫大に消費するため、1度使うと後がない状態に追い込まれかねないことも注意点 と思われる。 リニスは発動・命中さえすれば防げる相手はまずいないと言っていた。 小説ではバリアジャケットの原形をかろうじて保っていられるほどの損害をなのはに与えたが、アニメ本編では まったくの無傷に終わった(VFB054)。 因みに「Phalanx Shift」は、古代ギリシャに端を発した攻防一体の密集陣形戦法であるファランクスが由来と思われる。 それに由来するバルカンファランクスと呼ばれる圧倒的な連射速度を持つ機関砲もある。 本編中での発動呪文は以下の通り。 Divine Buster: 使用者:高町なのは 射程:A+ 攻撃力:A 発射速度:C なのはの主砲(この呼び方は1期、A'sDVDブックレットに記載された)。 膨大な魔力を直接目標に向けて放出するという、シンプルながら高威力の攻撃魔法。 その威力は、叩きつける魔力だけで強引に「封印」が出来るほど。また強靭なバリア貫通能力を持っている。1 期第11話のフェイトとの決戦では、フォトンランサーの発射体をやすやすと打ち砕いた上に、ラウンドシール ドを展開したフェイトにバリアジャケットに影響が出るほど大ダメージを与えた(シールドの上からでもフェイ トの魔力を削り取り、結果としてフェイトがバリアジャケットを維持できなくなった)。魔力のぶつかり合いな らば、ほぼ負けなしの威力を誇る。 レイジングハートのシューティングモードから使用される。 使用時に、レイジングハートを4つの環状魔法陣が取り巻くのが印象的。 この環状魔法陣が魔力の増大・加速を行っている。 一方トレカや1期DVD1巻ブックレットでは、杖の周囲に形成されているのは帯状魔法陣で、魔力の放出・集 束のコントロールを行っているとされている。 発射に少し時間がかかるので、なのははフラッシュ・ムーブやディバインシューターと連携させるなど、距離を とるために工夫している。 1期第3話での初出時には、ユーノは、自分はできない長距離魔法を使ったなのはの才能に感心し ていた。 ただし、このときは封印を目的としていて、名称は出ていない。名称の初出は1期第4話。 使用話数:1期第3話、他多数 Oh, and while translators are funky, I did catch something in Phalanx Shift mentioning Fate relying on mobility. Could anyone translate that? Last edited by Keroko; 2009-10-10 at 12:43. |
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2009-10-10, 11:28 | Link #2093 | |
Grumpy Russian bear
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2009-10-10, 11:58 | Link #2094 | |
Blazing General
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 38
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This isn't a typical fantasy setting; magical ranged combat is the norm and melee is a relatively rare specialization. A mage getting in close isn't asking for a pounding; they're more likely to know how to fight there than their opponent so they're probably going to be giving one out instead. In other words, melee suits an aggressive, speed-based strategy quite well in the Nanohaverse.
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2009-10-10, 12:11 | Link #2095 | ||||
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Note that when Tea moved away from what Nanoha was teaching she started getting more success. And don't forget the Hotel Augusta incident, where she was pretty much shooting everything that moved on on full auto, thanks to Nanoha's training. Quote:
Also, rolling is not quite frowned upon - it's the purpose of the rolling. Throwing yourself on the ground lets you evade the first shot, but it takes you longer to get back up and reorient compared to rolling. And then, if you've just been shot in the legs, at least if you turn your fall into a roll you can come up fighting, like what happened to LTC Erik Kurilla in Iraq; chasing an insurgent, Kurilla was shot in the legs and went down, and turned his fall into a roll so that he came up with his M4 up and ready. Referring to this link, point 9: Roll instead of crawling, because rolling is faster. (Note that the author is a retired Marine NCO.) Quote:
Also, remember that it was an open patch of grass ringed by trees. Not much cover, so she ducked and rolled away from a shot she couldn't intercept. As for the too busy dodging to give cover fire... that's the whole point of suppression fire, which is to keep the enemy from poking their heads up and shooting at you. In this case Tea was beginning to be suppressed and attempted to dodge a shot she couldn't intercept and move to a different position to give herself a breather and reorient.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2009-10-10 at 12:31. |
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2009-10-10, 12:55 | Link #2096 | ||
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She gets hit a fair bit, Keroko. Even Scaglietti managed to catch her, and hit her with a shot.
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Finally... what's the rationale given for ranking Phalanx Shift over Divine Buster? Note: Why did you edit out your offer to agree to disagree? I'm genuinely curious there. Quote:
Heck, of the four young protagonists in training in StrikerS, only Teana is a magical ranged specialist, and her magical blasts are fairly weak in comparison to other magical blasts.
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2009-10-10, 12:59 | Link #2097 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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It should also be noted that dodging in mage combat is not always the wisest of choices. It works fine against drones, but dodging a mage shot doesn't mean you can stop worrying about the shot you dodged. Chances are you are now being attacked attacked from two sides. It's like the saying "don't turn your back on the enemy" dodging, or more specifically rolling, gives your enemy the chance to act while your eye is off them. |
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2009-10-10, 13:11 | Link #2100 |
Sword Wielding Penguin
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You made a previous claim and supported it (with bold lettering for emphasis mind you) with Wiki information. And you then called the information recently pulled from a Wiki into question on the basis of it being wiki.
That can be, and is a Double Standard Fallacy. It's a rather minor instance, but I thought I'd point that out before the argument could get shanghai'd. I'm just letting you know to watch your claims. Sometimes they can bite back if you're not careful. I was watching for it ever since you made the refference to wiki earlier. (I was even tempted to point out that you should have gotten the definition of 'melee' from Dictionary.com, rather than Wikipedia.) Wiki refferences are rather notorious for ending up with Double Standard Fallacies. EDIT: *Added link* |
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