2010-07-05, 22:07 | Link #2281 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I have a problem with a Beatrice disguise not existing. We have seen Battler seeing Beatrice and we have a red claiming that he was the detective in Ep1-4 and another red claiming that the detective cannot falsify is pov.
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2010-07-05, 22:10 | Link #2282 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Well then if it helps any he only saw it once so a disguise was only used once. It hasn't once appeared in any of the core arcs. So I'm thinking a Beatrice disguise is not one of the "core truths".
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2010-07-05, 22:11 | Link #2283 |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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If I may....
The main issue with Shkanon, to me, has always been not just how it affects Shannon, Kano, and the culprit, but moreso how it affects others. It means that the vast majority of the servants are in on the murder conspiracy. That is fine, I can accept that, they all have need for money or in Genji's case, loyalty. Let's look at Natsuhi, Krauss, and George, other people who are involved with Shannon, Kanon, or both. In Natsuhi's case, she's delusional and haughty, so I can see why she wouldn't understand. I don't particularly LIKE the idea, but I can SEE it. Same with Krauss. With George, either he doesn't know, which I can ACCEPT because he doesn't hang with Kanon too much, but I don't quite like it. The other possibility is that he's a psycho supporter of Sayo, which could make sense given his yandere scenes, and I can ACCEPT that too. But my BIGGEST issue is the whole "Jessica Paradox". Shkanon much like all other truths in Umineko operates under the idea that fantasy scenes are not just Schrodinger's Box, but rather a metaphor for what happened. And I must admit, Shannon and Kanon's furniture talk along with their death scenes make a convincing case that they are craazy and part of Beatrice. But here is where things get uneasy for me. I've explained why the servants might be in on it, and I've admitted that Krauss, Natsuhi, and even George might be ignorant of Shkanon. The final straw is Jessica. We can't pick and choose characterization scenes, and thus far Jessica has shown herself to be someone who is very close to Shannon and Kanon, and even more than that, a person of upstanding character who draws the line at killing people. If one makes the argument that she is simply not aware of Shannon being Kanon, well, in addition to common sense(mainly that someone who is best friends and close with two people who are one and the same for at least three years prior to a murder mystery), that also destroys everything that shows her being close to Shannon and Kanon. So one possible conclusion is that Jessica is aiding Sayo as an accomplice. The issue with that however is that it ALSO flies in the face of her characterization. Jessica would never aid in murders for any reason, even for love. So, in a nutshell, Shkanontrice bothers me simply because it will inevitably completely deny Jessica's character, one way or the other. It stretches common sense with everyone else, but with Jessica particularly, it just can't work. Shannontrice and/or Kanontrice works just as well, and it doesn't have this very troubling problem associated with it. Last edited by Sentou; 2010-07-05 at 22:14. Reason: mixed up Gohda with Natsuhi |
2010-07-05, 22:12 | Link #2284 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Quote:
@Sentou: How about this solution. Jessica doesn't know? We are not talking about the smartest child in the family here.
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2010-07-05, 22:20 | Link #2287 | |
Mystery buff
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I'm really not being rude this time. I really have no idea what your talking about.
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2010-07-05, 22:22 | Link #2288 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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Quote:
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2010-07-05, 22:24 | Link #2289 | |
Intellectual Rapist
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2010-07-05, 22:26 | Link #2290 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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She believes she's being taunted by the person who murdered her mother and father. How does that not meet her rash and impulsive characterization? She's not being stupid here, she's just angry, and understandably so; her parents are dead and the person who killed them is taunting her.
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2010-07-05, 22:27 | Link #2292 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Quote:
She reiterates this in Episode 4 when She says if Kumasawa didn't tell her what was really going on she probably would've gotten herself killed by trying to get revenge on the killer. So she acknowledges this side of herself too.
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2010-07-05, 22:28 | Link #2293 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
The love duel in Ep6 is not about which couple gets love and which doesn't. It's about whether we can love all of these characters, or have to mesh any two of them into one entity -- in which case, one character is in this way loved, but whoever is left behind is thoroughly denied and turns out to have been a lie all along. Love "by character X for character Y" and "by us for character X" are radically different things, and I'm pretty sure it's the latter one which is the one without which it cannot be seen.
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2010-07-05, 22:29 | Link #2295 | |
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2010-07-05, 22:32 | Link #2296 |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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Yes, but there's a difference between being tricked by a mocking letter moments after discovering the mutilated corpses of your dead parents and not knowing that two people who are very close to you are one and the same.
Essentially you are using apples to prove oranges. Apples that Jessica is even self-aware of. |
2010-07-05, 22:32 | Link #2297 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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I can cut her some slack given the circumstances. Do you think Battler wouldn't have been angry and possibly behave rashly as well? I think Maria and possibly George wouldn't have been, but I sort of have my own thoughts on why.
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2010-07-05, 22:36 | Link #2298 |
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It could just be coincidence, but she was the one caught by the trap. Anyways, we cannot assume that Jessica would have known. She has school and the servants have work, Natsuhi probably would not have been cool with servants to talking to Jessica while working. So, we have no clue how much time Jessica spent with them.
Well, I think it is my turn to question. If not for being one in the same, why cannot Shanon and Kanon both have love?
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2010-07-05, 22:42 | Link #2299 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Easy. George and Shannon were set up by Jessica herself right? How much trouble would it be for the family if both of those loves were fulfilled? Essentially to protect his "dummy onee san" from getting in more trouble than she already is Kanon absolutely MUST reject Jessica's love.
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2010-07-05, 22:43 | Link #2300 | |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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Quote:
Basically, half the things we've been told about her is a lie. I can't really accept that. |
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