2010-09-02, 21:21 | Link #17101 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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But what about Sherlock Beato? Edit: Or even the ultimate plot twist: Sherlock GOHDA, with Krauss as his Watson! |
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2010-09-02, 21:23 | Link #17102 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Practically all the famous detectives of the golden age of mystery are public domain now.
However I don't think Ryuukishi will ever throw them inside the novel. At best he could show a character with a similar name which somehow represent the original but has a completely different personality. He did so with two writers.
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2010-09-02, 21:25 | Link #17103 | |
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2010-09-02, 21:53 | Link #17106 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Off-Current-Topic Theory here:
Has anyone realized that before Kanon's death, he would always declare 'not being furniture' or something similar to this? Would this mean 'death of personality as well', increasing the ShKanon theory? This would also dodge the reds in EP6, when Kanon 'does not exist anywhere in the room', for Kanon 'has not become furniture'. Question: Were there any observers during George's confession/engagement to Shannon? Since there were no observers, who's to say he actually proposed to her, and not actually go on a killing spree? That scene seems quite unimportant though; or is there any clues to it?
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2010-09-02, 21:58 | Link #17107 | |
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That doesnt mean that George isn't actually using that as an opportunity to up and commit the first twilight, though. |
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2010-09-02, 22:33 | Link #17108 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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The logic that "this scene is unimportant or there are no observers so it didn't happen" can be applied to many other scenes too with this same logic. So why don't we list some of them shall we?
Why don't we just rip out every line of dialogue in the story while we're at it?
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-02 at 22:49. |
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2010-09-02, 23:16 | Link #17109 | |
Local Crackpot
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Somewhere?
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The only thing I really doubt is Will being the detective:
Obviously a 'detective' isn't just anyone who detects things, at least not in Umineko. A detective is someone who either makes the Detective Proclamation or is declared the detective by the person who runs the board. So. Who's running the board, exactly? ...Featherine, I guess? It's not Bern, it most likely isn't Will, and unless Leon tripped and knocked over the chessboard(or magically went batshit insane), Featherine seems the most likely choice. Since she is the Witch of Theatergoing, I wouldn't be surprised if she saw Vance in a different light and created...Leon... and made him buddy up with Will through Bern, who's just directing the story. Leon and Will die a tragic, sad death, the end, "now that we fed the cats, let's go eat Ange-burgers." Quote:
Leon wasn't there when Will broke Shanon...Why? Is it because he simply couldn't see it, and to try to cover it up, Featherine gave him an excuse to leave? Leon was also by his side when Will was questioning the family. And he was paying attention. And going around asking politely/making Will be nice. Leon also says that he thinks Beatrice is the culprit (didn't he? Don't...really remember that well, but he said something along those lines). While he never explained why, he did analyze the information given to him and formed his own conclusion. He, however, never finished his job...unless he's stuck in EP8 with Will and trying to to deny what happened in EP7.
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2010-09-03, 00:06 | Link #17110 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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For the Will versus Bern fight in Tea party, the motive of Will was to destory the claim of Kyrie and Rudolf going on a killing spree and murder Leon.
It was all related to that Leon was only created under some very unlikely condition (probability of 1/256xxxx), he was said to be the only hope of Kureru (the Beatrice in white) as he was the only one not becoming Yasu and was raised well. But Bern wanted to make that even though Leon was born, he must be killed in the end by Kyrie. In this way, Bern crashed the last hope of Kureru. Therefore Will became the knight in shining armor to come to save Leon by challenging Bern's tale. Will's focus was on Kyrie and Rudolf as culprits in Leon's world, not they murdering the rest in Ange's 1986 world. -------------- Well, for Rudolf as culprit, it was already established long ago that he was doing some dirty business in US, so he was a risk-taker himself. When the opportunity came, he may grasp it, even it was murder. Second, he was portrayed to be trusting Kyrie's judgment a lot, so if Kyrie led the killing, he may just well follow her order. In fact, one could easily see Kyrie was manipulating Rudolf's male chauvinism into accepting what she was doing, she was challenging Rudolf "Are you a man who dare to kill people? Are you able to grip the chance?"
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2010-09-03, 01:03 | Link #17111 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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A thought on how Bern could defeat Will in spite of all his rule-slinging...
...did she ever actually suggest this story was a mystery? Oh, she asked him to answer a question. She asked him to figure things out. But she always seemed a bit... dodgy and unresponsive to assertions of rules. If the genre were not a mystery, none of that would matter, would it? A story with a mystery in it is not, by default, a "mystery story."
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2010-09-03, 01:22 | Link #17112 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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In fact, if we accept the premise that Episode 7 truly wasn't a mystery, we can accept the incredibly blatant breaking of the inherent trust meant to be shown to the reader represented by Bern's blatant railroading of Will. If none of the clues are shown in good faith to the reader, then it doesn't qualify as Mystery. There is also ample evidence that Bern's tale takes place on a very similar gameboard, not Beato's. This is indicated in Episode 6's ??? when Featherinne arbitrarily deems Bernkastel the Game Master/Territory lord of this game. It is said, specifically, to be a game board "very similar to Beatrice's". Therefore, Episode 7 can simply be a "demonstration" session where Bern presents her twisted view of the events on Rokkenjimma just to troll observers and show off on her part. What an excellent troll. With this interpretation, we can assert that the Reds and facts related can be trusted, as they are the foundation of the board itself, but the presentation is itself complete nonsense. All without violating the rules of Beato's game...Interesting. Great observation...Even if it's incorrect, it still works wonderfully. |
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2010-09-03, 03:13 | Link #17113 |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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Bern's trump card in Tea Party was "THIS IS ALL TRUTH.... Yeah, I know all the problems with this red, but she still said it. And explained why she was able to say it. She claims that it's really what happened in reality on that day and reality doesn't have to follow any rules for mystery, that is our previous episodes.
I have a mixed feelings about Tea Party. On the first hand, I don't want to believe it and ???? reinforces this feeling. But here's the question "what else should we expect with all the information we have?" I've already proposed the idea that Shannon just forgot to turn off the bomb, that was turned it comic by the artist, but that's just silly. On the other hand, I can see how it fits thematically and finally having a bit of truth, even if (maybe) incomplete, after all the fictions is refreshing. And if anything, we learned that the relatives aren't that dumb, as Beatrice wants them to be in her fictions. While I can see how people can doubt (and not without a basis) the authenticity of Tea Party, doubting the whole ep7 is a little too far, in my opinion. In this episode Bern was just giving the answers to all riddles that Featherine asked from her. And Featherine acknowledged that she did her work splendidly. If you want to doubt that, you're doubting the whole Featherine's reasoning so far. And using that reasoning she wrote 4 episodes, Ange confirmed that they are similar to Beatrice's: ......However, though this forgery she had written was still in its first stages, ...it definitely felt as though it had something very similar to the tales in those message bottles. Speaking metaphorically, ......one might call it a scent. An indescribable stern atmosphere, ......like a stuffy library. The 'Beatrice' who wrote the message bottles and Hachijo Tohya are different people. ......And yet, this has the same scent as that tale.... Basically, that means that we have 4 episodes of pure lie. Oh, what a great troll it is. |
2010-09-03, 03:31 | Link #17114 | |||
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And how Episode 4 spent that precious Okonogi screentime on a speech lecturing on the subjective nature of one's own truth of the situation. Therefore, Episode 7's Tea Party can only be considered the TRUTH of an extremely subjective troll loli who possesses no love. Moreover, at least you agree that since Episode 7 can be interpreted as not being fantasy, we can therefore explain why the Van Dine laws wouldn't be effective, and Bernkastel's confidence in that regard. Quote:
You're confusing competence with murderous intent, I believe. Beato has never portrayed them as incompetent, simply as reacting irrationally to, you know, a mysterious chain of closed room murders taking place during the middle of a typhoon. Quote:
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2010-09-03, 03:53 | Link #17115 | |||
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2010-09-03, 04:04 | Link #17116 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Once again, Ryukishi has emphasized in at least two separate episodes that "truth" varies from person to person, and is, as Okonogi put it, "something that may not truly exist". Quote:
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'Nuff said. But hey, if you really believe that happened, then Im sorry to let you know that you're in for heavy disappointment when Episode 8 comes out. Unless you want to say that Bernkastel, who never utilized the Golden Truth, is somehow more aware of events than Battler, who wound up becoming Game Master and even made a true game, then you're not going to like Episode 8. |
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2010-09-03, 04:37 | Link #17117 | ||||
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Maybe Battler really survived and will tell us the true story as another survivor in ep8. Quote:
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2010-09-03, 05:14 | Link #17118 | |
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Yet, Bernkastel who knew that perfectly made up a conclusion about Kinzo carrying off the corpses and his indecent relationship with Natsuhi and all that shit.
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2010-09-03, 05:49 | Link #17119 |
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Join Date: Jan 2010
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But the detective can't use supernatural knowledge in his reasoning due to Knox's 2nd. There was no way to prove that Kinzo is dead by human means. Only Natushi, who knew the truth, could reveal that, but she refused. Because she claimed that he's alive and he couldn't have existed anywhere except her bed during that night, the logical conclusion about their relationships followed. And it was just an interrogation to force Natsuhi to admit that Kinzo is dead and thus to reveal more truth, achieve "perfect victory". Compare it to Tea Party where Bern has no objective reason of showing lies, except trolling, but has a reason to show the truth - to perform her duty as the miko of Featherine and "drag out the guts", i.e. show the dirty truth, of the tale and Beatrice's illusion.
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2010-09-03, 06:12 | Link #17120 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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If Bernkastel really can observe numerous kakera as she claims, there is no point for her to seek anything and "reach" any kind of truth. She can just go and see it and say this was the truth, period, end of story. But the conversation between Bern and Featherine clearly says this is not the case, that Bernkastel had to "reach" a truth through thinking and making conclusions. How exactly is that different from interpretation?
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