2011-01-08, 19:08 | Link #21401 |
The True Culprit
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I'd also like to add that Voyagers are extremely afraid of becoming Creators for some reason, and their journey through the kakera in search of entertainment is to escape having to become one as much as it is avoiding the disease of boredom.
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2011-01-08, 21:35 | Link #21403 | |||
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What I'm wondering is, what 'solution' or 'answer' do people say that EP8 didn't give to them? I finished EP8 yesterday and I wasn't as disturbed with the so-called lack of answers as it seems some other people were. In fact, this is how I saw it; EP8 provided us with an answer for Rokkenjima Prime. The argument that the story of Rokkenjima Prime isn't a mystery is a strawman argument; it was never a mystery to begin with. The mystery that Ryukishi told us about was EP1-4; the gameboard story. That's your mystery right there and he even told us EP7 provided the end to the mystery. Although maybe some of us think he's still hidden some more details about Beatrice's story... However, the massacre of Rokkenjima Prime is not a murder mystery. It cannot conform to any detective novel, or any of the detective fiction rules. It is merely a story of a massacre. In our own world this would be something similar to the Jack the Ripper massacres; even now there are people who look through the clues attempting to solve it. When I say it or Rokkenjima Prime is not a mystery what I mean is that Jack wasn't obligated to leave us clues for it to be solved, for example. From the beginning, in EP1-2 we couldn't even detect the existence of this Rokkenjima Prime, so why now are we saying he deceived us? I only started coming up with the Author Theory at the end of EP2 and back then it was still very limited. In fact, by the beginning of EP6, I had already said when I presented my theory that we may never know what really happened on Rokkenjima Prime: Quote:
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2011-01-09, 02:27 | Link #21404 | ||
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Many theories such as the author theory have been around for quite some time. The author theory first emerged after episode 1.
The first time I read it was when Jan-Poo posted it on this forum during his conversation with Chronotrig. Comparing the author theory with the kakera theory: Quote:
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I agree with Kylon99 so I’ll ask everyone as well. What are you guys still looking for? Look, some stories were written and shown to us. Those stories were just works of Yasu and Tooya; characters within the game itself. Episode 7 gave us the answer to those stories. Yasu is the culprit in her stories. In her stories, she’s capable of setting up perfect closed rooms, disguising herself, changing her voice, etc. Just a bit unrealistic but that’s Yasu for ya. In the real world, what did Yasu really do on that day? Who knows. Yet, some people want to take one or more of the fictional characters from her stories and paint them as the culprit in the real world. I guess I used to be like that so I understand. Eventually, people will understand... I believe.
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2011-01-09, 03:01 | Link #21405 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-01-09, 03:46 | Link #21406 | |||
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@Kylon and @Ssol
You know, I don't even need to write an answer to what you just said here, because I already explained it in detail before EP8 was released What I said there, is still valid. If you can show me where all those questions were answered then it's fine. But if you can't then in my book it isn't fine. And I'd like to highlight some points that I made clear back from then: Quote:
And yet I had already predicted that Ryuukishi wouldn't answer everything (although I didn't think he would go to such degree) Quote:
and then a post later this summarize pretty well my view on this issue: Quote:
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2011-01-09, 05:11 | Link #21407 | |
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I looked at those questions. I have answers to them which are based on various clues within the game. However, as you said, I cannot confirm my answers. Since you only want to hear Ryukishi's words I'm sure he'll have another interview or something similar very soon.
For now, I will leave you with the truth: Quote:
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2011-01-09, 05:18 | Link #21408 | |
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2011-01-09, 05:28 | Link #21409 | |||
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Nowhere did I say he provided us all the answers in EP7, I said that he declared EP7 as the end to the mystery. (He did this in an interview.) If you're talking about how EP8 did not provide all the answers in a direct manner for the mysteries of EP1-4 then what I'm saying is that EP8 is not that. However, if you say that you're unsatisfied that he hasn't provided you with enough of an explanation for the Beatrice mysteries as of yet, then you may argue that. Because that's about your own satisfaction with the series. Now, you did say: Quote:
Here's the problem. Featherine, after hearing Bern's tale at the end of EP7 declared that she needed to sleep for I forgot how long to go back and re-think through the earlier episodes. I think we need to do that too. But, I've already posted about this... two of the main mysteries have been presented to us; about Beatrice running the epitaph and the siblings going on killing sprees. We've kinda detected these two things by induction. What we haven't done is deduction. I've realized by reading some other mystery novels that they NEVER give clues that allow you do arrive at the culprit. They give you clues to show who cannot be the culprit. You have to do the leg work to remove all the possible list of culprits; whoever is remaining is the one. We haven't gone through that exercise, as far as I know. At least not with what we've been given for EP7. Spoiler for Directed at Jan-Poo about the questions he wants answered:
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2011-01-09, 05:39 | Link #21410 | ||
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But, I'm not sure everyone understands the idea of Rokkenjima Prime vs. the Beatrice Mysteries. I thought people were getting them mixed up. In other words, the warning I had about the Author Theory and the trap you could fall into if you didn't realize it.... was the trap I think people are falling into now. The trap being the idea that the answer for Rokkenjima Prime is the same answer as for the Beatrice Mysteries. Quote:
With enough outcry, maybe he'll be forced to lay down the solution in minute, minute detail in an interview; I wouldn't mind getting this either. (Similar to the way he explained the Explosion Incident to us... "Maria's Jaw. Altered Terrain.") However, we do have one thing... which, although I said it in my previous post, I'll say it again. The end of EP7 hinted to us that we should go back through the episodes again with the new info. Remember when we did that around EP6... we found all sorts of hints about stuff we've already figured out. EP1 and 2 were so loaded with troll-like statements; he basically ended up telling us the answers right to our face. So even if he never speaks another words... we have all this in EP1-4 that shows us just how much he planned from the beginning. And it seems like... how much? I don't know.. I gotta go back through the old episodes yet again. Last edited by Kylon99; 2011-01-09 at 05:50. |
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2011-01-09, 05:58 | Link #21411 |
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I wouldn't mind going back through the games if he dangled a carrot out in front of us. Something along the lines of:
"I'm interested in seeing how many readers will reach the complete truth of Rokkenjima before I release Rei" So I agree with you. I'm sure that much more can be learned from the previous games with the knowledge we have now.
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2011-01-09, 06:20 | Link #21412 | ||||||||
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However it would pretentious and arrogant for anyone to claim that the truth they have reached is the truth just because they say it. So let's take the example of the powerful MMORPG item that Ryuukishi himself made. I've played a MMORPG so I can talk by experience. The truth each one of us reached is comparable to an incredible rare item that we have obtained after 2 or more years of hard work. However all the alleged qualities of this item are merely speculated. The item description doesn't mention what this incredible rare item actually does. We know that there has been a widespread theory among the players, and until this point we thought that was indisputable. But then some rumors start to spread: "this item is actually worthless", "all the various powers that people seem to notice are just a placebo effect". So now we are in the position where we do not know if the item we've been working hard for so long was actually worth all that effort. And this, my friend, sucks. Quote:
This doesn't have anything to do with "murder mystery" rules and such. This is simply something that the story was supposed to explain from a narrative standpoint. If this was fantasy or sci-fi the same issue would stand. On a side note, I don't think that the mysteries from EP1-EP4 where fully explained. Will's answers at best cover some aspects, but there are still some huge holes. So I can agree that I can't blame EP8 for not providing those answers. But then I can blame EP7 and the whole series, and EP8 still has its faults. Quote:
But I believe that one year ago the people that expected a full solution and trusted that Ryuukishi would give that (to the point where they would actually argue against those that would deny that) were the vast majority. Saying now that "the answers aren't that important" shows lack of coherence, and makes me think this "switch" just happens because of fanboyism rather than actual critic sense. Quote:
My final answer was that: no one can be the culprit. This is what several reasonings from various starting places led me to. All converges to that. But this is a story and there is inevitably some degree of uncertainty that I can't shake off. Quote:
Think about the Kinzo case. Many people already arrived to the conclusion that Kinzo was already dead, right? Do you think that a simple "Ryuukishi confirms that yes Kinzo was already dead" is the same thing as the whole situation explained and narrated that we have seen in EP5? That's not the same thing! And that's what I was expecting for every unanswered question. Quote:
And as I pointed out already, he'd still need to explain how such a ridiculous event was considered an "unfortunate incident" and no one was blamed. Quote:
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I'm not sure what is the Epitaph Game theory. But I'm not expecting Ryuukishi to answer user-made theories. He just needs to answer question that the story he wrote raised. EDIT: Oh by the way... don't get the wrong idea that I just need the answers and then I'll be satisfied. I was actually awaiting for the answers so that I could then judge whether they were satisfying or not. It's not like any kind of explanation will work. I always had this hope that in the end I would laugh and acknowledge Ryuukishi's genius, and that would have been even more true if he were to provide a solution that was by far better than anything that I could think.
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2011-01-09, 15:10 | Link #21413 | |
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Using that MMO analogy, we defeated the last boss and obtained the incredible rare item. I think even MMO players will argue with you about this. What was the correct goal of the MMO game?
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2011-01-09, 15:50 | Link #21414 |
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The feeling I get from the series is that Ryuukishi doesn't want to give us the answer, but he would be glad if the answer was forcefully taken from him. That's how I interpreted episode 4's ending in relation to this current situation.
"Victory isn't something you're given. It's something you take." That's what how I look at it. I don't dislike the idea, but his execution was way off. He seems to genuinely believe that we are fine with not getting our solution confirmed, which is hardly true. This is akin to running a marathon, knowing your time was great, but not being told how it compared to everyone else's time. Not really the best feeling in the world. But really, I think we are going to get an answer in the end. If not, then it will be disappointing, but it doesn't hurt to wait until Rei comes out right? Maybe it will have all answers there and we have time to think until it comes out. It doesn't hurt to be a bit optimistic here. |
2011-01-09, 15:51 | Link #21415 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-01-09, 15:56 | Link #21416 | |
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Beatrice: "The switch is off." Eva: "LIES."[turns it on] Everyone: *Conveniently not seeing what Eva did* Eva:"...I'm going to go to Kuwadorian because...yeah. Why not? Maybe there is some secret shit there." [Stuff blows up] Eva:"Oh wow. Oops." |
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2011-01-09, 18:25 | Link #21417 | |
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This is why I don't like analogies, people. Ryukishi's is far-fetched enough. You're just stretching it to the realm of impossibilities! |
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2011-01-09, 18:41 | Link #21418 | ||||||||
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I for one, did not expect an answer; in fact I totally expected the real events to be lost that day. This is why I reposted my original Author Theory posting. It wasn't an Author Theory post, but rather a post to explain why the Author Theory isn't useless. The most important idea to my post is that even though the true events of the day were lost, that we who are outside can still struggle to make sense of it. The only promise for answers that I recognize is the ones for the mysteries. After EP1, and some way through EP2, I already suspected that a great tragedy had occurred where everything was wiped clean just like in Higurashi. But with the lack of magic in this world, it could not be revealed. (i.e. the lack of kakera and resetting the world to try again, like in Higurashi... basically the rise of the Author Theory) Quote:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=7007 Quote:
I'm sorry to have to say what I was able to foresee. I'm not trying to say I was a genius because after I posted these ideas, I thought it should've been kinda obvious. But ultimately, I cannot argue that you should've seen this coming, if you hadn't been thinking the same things I had. I'm just saying that someone else could see this coming, so maybe you're mistaken about what was promised or not. I can say that I picked up all these clues to arrive at the conclusion: 1. No happy end. Interviews and multiple EPs. 2. An explosion that cleans the island of evidence. EP1, EP4. 3. The question of Meta Ange trying to change the events so that someone can come back but then realizing that no one will be coming back. Furthermore if someone comes back that they wouldn't be coming back for her. EP4. 4. The question of which world is real and the emergence and validation of the Author Theory. Suggested at end of EP1. Question came up in EP2 and beyond. Verified in EP6, 7 and 8. 5. Beatrice being described as 'Endless' and therefore Umineko was like a shifting maze; endless stories are possible. Bernkastel's Letter, EP1 or 2 and the emergence of the Author Theory. There's more; the whole theme of the story is about what truth can be had when the truth is shut up in a cat box. Until it can be revealed both mystery and fantasy can be made to exist. And it's been said that the mysteries are beautiful; or that the fantasy is a lie to soothe your heart. Or that they are what gives rise to love between author and reader. This is what the story has been going on and on and on again. You don't expect EP8 to betray that do you? Quote:
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However, I remember reading about that area and in the 1920's and it really was romanized with a Qilian. Because I was also wondering why they used a 'Q.' But for whatever reason they did. So you see what's going on here. That guy who didn't know that answer, would still have this 'question' in his mind. I'm saying you still have this same 'question' to Ryukishi and you demand an answer. An answer he told you already. Maybe your real question should be, is the EP7 Tea Party information reliable? Quote:
(I'm not talking about you of course, I know you do your homework. ) |
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2011-01-09, 20:41 | Link #21419 | |||
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Or Battler, maybe... that would be kinder. 8) When he said that it's the End of the Mystery, to me at first I thought it meant the solution should be available now... but... now that I think about it, I think he just meant that there won't be any new mysteries spun. Quote:
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Because that's when you realize you used up all your potions in the last battle. |
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2011-01-09, 20:46 | Link #21420 | |
The True Culprit
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But then someone else, let's say George as a Culprit X, flipped out and killed everyone, using the game as a cover so no one notices until it's too late. It's Yasu's fault...she gave him the perfect opportunity...and she killed herself because of it.
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