2011-04-14, 11:22 | Link #1981 | |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
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2011-04-14, 11:30 | Link #1983 | ||
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Kyubey having the nine tail imagery in that scene where Sayaka becomes a Puella Magi prompted me to research into nine-tail fox legends to see what it might say about Kyubey. And lo and behold, there are indeed malicious nine-tail foxes, but also ones that "...put the fox in a more tender position, whose simple desire was basically to seek a companion to share the human experience of love and happiness...". Really, nothing concrete was said about Kyubey by the nine-tail shadow imagery. It was just SHAFT being SHAFT, imo. No, they're not. Not at all. A supernatural or magical being is often fundamentally different from a more naturalistic alien being. They're different conceptually too. Furthermore, many Star Trek fans absolutely hate it when Star Trek goes into a more mystical or supernatural direction, as they did at times in DS9. Likewise, pure fantasy fans would not have been amused if Lord of the Rings had been resolved by an ET-esque alien swooping down in his flying saucer to destroy Mordor. For a lot of viewers, these differences matter. Quote:
Tech is generally expected to tie back into actual scientific concepts, even if they are the more fantastical ones. Magic doesn't need to do this. Magic simply is.
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2011-04-14, 11:43 | Link #1984 | |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
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2011-04-14, 12:02 | Link #1985 | ||
Lost at Sea
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Although you now have me imagining a very dark ending, where Madoka upbraids Homura for predestining her future and preventing her from ever growing up... Quote:
We'll have to agree to disagree about "meek and insecure Madoka" being "the real Madoka." Sorry! I keep thinking of Madoka as being merely ordinary, not meek and insecure. You're definitely right that Homura's intention is to save Madoka's life. But you know, one of the things the anime keeps bringing up is the fine line that divides wishing on behalf of oneself and wishing on behalf of another person. Homura's stated wish is also about herself, that she become different than she has been, someone strong enough to protect Madoka. There is a selfish element in Homura's wish, even if its intended purpose is altruistic. To some extent, Madoka is partly a means whereby Homura redresses her own unhappiness about herself. Here's a thought-experiment for you: does Homura grow up between timelines 1 and 5? What do we mean anyway when we think that someone has "grown up?" If Madoka "grows up," what will we see? If we think of Madoka as meek and insecure, growing up might mean then that she becomes self-confident and self-assured. How we describe Madoka now prefigures our expectations about how she will turn out in the end, and what the happy ending--if there is one--will consist of, at least in terms of Madoka's characterization. Will that be a happy ending for you, if Madoka turns out that way? Will everything have been worth it, should Madoka become self-confident and self-assured? |
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2011-04-14, 12:45 | Link #1986 | ||||
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Join Date: Apr 2006
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You know, that wish, "Madoka's wish", which will supposedly open the door to the miracle Homura has been waiting for (that her feelings reach Madoka)? I believe it's not a contract. It's a wish, but no a contract. That's the answer to the puzzle, I think. In order for Madoka to "remember" Homura, for Homura's hopes and feelings to reach Madoka, Homura has to die. Homura's death will make "Madoka's wish" kick in, and Madoka will "remember". So what exactly is "Madoka's wish" if not a contract. IMO, it's Madoka's request for Homura to save her, back in timeline 3. In Japanese, "wish" and "request" are pretty much the same word. We know magic defies logic, and has the potential to achieve even absurd things. It's not farfetched at all then to think that promise between them could trigger an actual miracle. So that's the key, I think. What happens from then on? What will Madoka do after Homura's death, after "remembering" everything that happened between them in the previous timelines? That's up to her. That's when she has to grow up. Quote:
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I think growing up, for Madoka, means to realize her own value. I mean, if people around you love you, it's because you're not worthless. This is the fundamental thing Madoka can't understand, IMO. I've got the feeling she'll begin to understand this after remembering everything about Homura. That will bring the series full circle.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2011-04-14 at 13:23. |
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2011-04-14, 13:19 | Link #1987 | |
Speculation is wrong.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Paris
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Back then, I though Mai would become the winner of the Battle-Royale and would use her uber-powers to bring everyone from the dead, at the cost of erasing herself from the world. Maybe dying. Maybe as a watcher who can't interact with people. I don't know. I'm expecting (= I would like) to see that happening on Madoka. Madoka will always be Madoka. That is to say she'll sacrifice herself, no matter what. But this time, it will be voluntary. I could see an ending where everyone is ressurected, but Madoka is missing. Erasing herself, taking the burden, whatever. I'm not a huge fan on the revival-plot-twist, but if Gen get rid of his heroine in the process, I could be fine with it. |
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2011-04-14, 13:34 | Link #1988 | |
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Personally, I think the opposite. Madoka will accept Homura's sacrifice, and live on with that burden. That's goes in line with Urobuchi's claims about Homura being the actual heroine, and what I perceive as Madoka growing up and the message Urobuchi is going at. Madoka rejecting the contract seems more in line with all this IMO. EDIT: Besides, Urobuchi won't change the rules of the game. If Madoka contracts and use all her magic, she'll become Gretchen and destroy the world. You have to consider this as set in stone if she contracts.
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2011-04-14, 14:35 | Link #1989 |
Twilight lander
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This really wasn't set in stone in TL1 and TL3.
I've thought about ressurection ending before, and probably already mentioned it here. What seems set in stone to me is that it will feature no Madoka. Because she's the only one to trigger that ending. If she learns that it is possible to bring everyone back AND make them humans again, then L himself would give 62% that Madoka may go for it. Then die along with WN - pretty much the sacrifice and the bitter ending we've been expecting. But this is likely to prove wrong next Thursday. Alas, the only thing I can bet on is that there will be no other loops. For obvious and painfully expectable reasons. |
2011-04-14, 16:12 | Link #1992 | ||
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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But underneath it all, Madoka remains Madoka. Even without magical powers, mundane girl Madoka follows Hitomi, knowing she'll be up against a witch, and knowing that she'll be useless in that situation. She fidgets and worries, as fits her role, but she still makes decisions when she sees the need (not running away, grabbing that bucket...). Conversly, magical girl Madoka admits to being afraid, but she overplays it because that's inconsistent with the magical girl role as she sees it. And even that insistence on appearance is consistent with Madoka's personality: She buys Mami's act (is it time to admit that I didn't trust Mami further than Kyubey when she first appeared? ), she tells Homura she needs to act as cool as her name sounds, she fidgets about the ribbon in the beginning... Yep, I, too, think she needs to break through that all and see herself for what she is. |
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2011-04-14, 16:24 | Link #1993 | |||
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
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2011-04-14, 17:28 | Link #1994 |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Houston
Age: 36
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Has anyone actually read or watch Geothe's Faust to speculate as to how the series will end? It seems to be following the same situations as that, so an ending could be derived from it. The entro to the anime itself was the same as for the story with 2011 on the bottom which would mean that this series is a modern interpretation of the story of Faust right?
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2011-04-14, 17:32 | Link #1995 | |
Speculation is wrong.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Paris
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(Well, we don't know if she tried a kamikaze attempt like Kyouko. BUT the gem is missing so I suppose that it has been broken, voluntary or not) |
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2011-04-14, 18:49 | Link #1996 | |
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2011-04-14, 19:16 | Link #1997 |
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Location: Houston
Age: 36
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It stated that Gretchen wished for Faust to be brought to the higher planes, which it was granted.
Its hard to parallel because Faust was supposed to be redeemed at the end, which Homura can only parallel if she saves Madoka, but after that Madoka would than make a wish to save Homura if she was to be Gretchen. But that would mean Homura would ultimately fail...
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2011-04-14, 19:26 | Link #1998 | ||
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
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2011-04-14, 19:29 | Link #1999 | |
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2011-04-14, 20:24 | Link #2000 | |||
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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It seems to me, that the concept/idea/experience of people subconsciously recognizing something they should not technically know but which may represent some sort of strong bond or feeling in an unreachable, alternate existence is a fairly common and very natural part of the sort of stories people tend to create. And, outside of any strictly logical explanation, this sort of inexplicable familiarity is often only reflective of a general belief that the things which happen, our experiences and small, limited existences--even if they are swept away, buried, lost, or cut off irrevocably (i.e., for one example, by the erasure of one timeline as it is covered up and rewritten by another one)--somehow, indeed have significance. The sort of feeling that, even if in one world Madoka had never met Homura, never befriended her--never struggled together, or gave her life for her--then somehow after that, no matter where in the vast universe of possibilities and realities Homura and Madoka's existences may happen to intersect with each other, there will be a connection between them. The use of this phenomenon in narrative is evocative of a theme of souls, fate, and destiny which is fundamentally attractive to people. This attraction can be so inherent and internalized that the story does not even need an explanation for it. On the other hand, an explanation is implicit in the conclusion that if humans do have unique, individual, transcendental souls, then all of the experiences of a person will be somehow written onto it, and thus this will be the explanation for any minute instances of recognition or foreknowledge which might occur beyond the bounds of our worldly existences. Such an explanation does not necessarily either need to be romanticized. I think it's possible to read that scene with Madoka, as Homura's name is cut off from her lips mid-completion, as representative of the completion of the time reversal process as the erasure of all of Madoka's previous experiences with Homura is finally utterly removes her from Madoka's mind and memory. Madoka's "Homu-" is not an indication of Madoka subconsciously remembering her, but rather Madoka forgetting her. In any case, though, what is at minimum at least something which I think is clear about the story is that that incident was supposed to indicate some sort of subconscious recognition of Homura on the part of Madoka, not any mundane time-jumping convolutions. Quote:
In timeline 3, Madoka said: 'Save me from my foolishness. Do not let me contract with Kyuubey.' However, the words that Madoka spoke in timeline 1, were: 'That I made it in time to save you. I am proud of that fact, even now.' The Madoka of timeline 3 forgot that it was only by grasping the power and will to protect of a Magical Girl that she had ever saved Homura, that Homura was there. In the same way, the Madoka of timeline 5 has forgotten her foolishness, the bitterness and regret of having been betrayed by those things (lol, convoluted sentence structure. Let's just say I'm referring to 'the power and will to protect of a magical girl' by 'those things' here). All of those things have faded into the abyss of non-existence that is time travel. Given this is the case, where does Homura's loyalty to the Madoka of timeline 3 alone come from? Maybe it is because Homura has fooled herself into thinking she is acting for Madoka's sake rather than her own feelings, that her wish is unfulfillable. Quote:
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