2011-10-23, 15:40 | Link #25281 | |||||
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Come on, who didn't consider personality death at least from EP3 on?! I don't know why you are so tense with that exact line. Of course you could say that it could work for everybody...which it did in a way. We were often given misleading information about death...be it time (EP3 - 4th, 5th, 6th), order (EP2 - 4th, 5th, 6th) or actual state of death (Shkannon and possible others). Quote:
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2011-10-23, 16:08 | Link #25282 | |||||
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Are we arguing, effectively, that the Red truth means whatever Beatrice says it means, regardless of what words actually come out of her fucking mouth? Because that's what I've been arguing since the beginning. Quote:
Regardless, I was talking about Piece-Battler, the one who seems to actually be the 'Detective', so to speak. Meta-Battler is basically the reader. Quote:
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2011-10-23, 16:23 | Link #25283 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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2011-10-23, 16:46 | Link #25284 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2011
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From a certain point of view, that might work, but...
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By the way I am reading this proposal, it would only give a small fragment of the truth-giver's irrational decision-making process or thoughts... unless the person/witch is using it to intentionally misdirect, when you get even less. There is just too much noise to get anything useful out of it. |
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2011-10-23, 17:31 | Link #25285 | ||||
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2011-10-23, 17:51 | Link #25286 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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Jesus tapdancing Christ, you guys post a lot. I forget to check the thread for a day and there are three new pages? Wow.
Anyway, catching up: I believe the 'X is dead' isn't a problem so much as a waste. Can we see where the author is going with that? Yes. With that in mind, I don't consider it cheating. We can see where the author is going with it, we all saw it coming. We discussed it a lot before it was "confirmed." But I think it's a waste. It honestly could have led to a more intricate mystery than Shkanon. Shkanon solves itself, doesn't do much and isn't really hard enough to solve. But the red truth system could have been used in less loophole happy ways to create a better story. Also above cheating or anything else, I think it was just overall a pretty dumb idea. It works within the context of the story, it makes sense within the context of the story, but it's still dumb and renders the story itself rather pointless. The story presents itself in a way that red text is initially reliable then slowly becomes unreliable. The red text is perfectly useless, but that's the point Ryuukishi wanted to make. It just so happens that I didn't enjoy that point. (So really it comes down to "AND I DON'T LIKE IT" from me again) Quote:
Hey, c'mon now. Let's not pretend Nero Wolfe doesn't exist. I know the man is fat but let's not pretend he is not a detective. ------------ By the by, on the mystery genre topic, I finally got my hands on the Randal Garett series, which is about locked-rooms in a world where magic exists. Jesus Christ the series isn't even that hard to find but it took me way too long to get it for some reason. |
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2011-10-23, 19:24 | Link #25287 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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And another thing... This idea came up in the story as well, but just because your notion of death is the popular opinion, why exactly does that invalidate Beatrice's position? You understand that your belief is also subjective, right?
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2011-10-23, 20:00 | Link #25288 | |
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The old man in the corner is the traditional example of an armchair detective, who takes no active role in investigations. ---- As for rules / fair play, those wouldn't matter if he weren't positioning this as a game.
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2011-10-23, 20:57 | Link #25289 | |
The True Culprit
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If she had defined it for him like she did her definition of "Locked Room", it wouldn't be a problem. She deliberately changed information without telling him. This is the problem, and everyone trying to justify the subjectiveness of Beatrice's thoughts are missing the point spectacularly.
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2011-10-23, 22:25 | Link #25290 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Maria and Beatrice said Sakutarou is the one and only in the world, and is entirely irreplaceable, but that was actually factually wrong, apparently.
Wasn't there a point where the idea that Beatrice could say witches exist came up, but she wouldn't say something like that because there couldn't be a game that way? Quote:
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2011-10-23, 22:58 | Link #25291 | ||
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In a way she was dodging the question.
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2011-10-23, 23:32 | Link #25292 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Don't Witches exist? I mean, we have an idea of the word, what they are, what they do, ect. I could easily say witches exist, and most likely it's possible to in red, but if she said that to Battler....how early did this scene happen again?
I know she said there wouldn't even be a game if she claimed magic exists in red(which she seemed to imply she still could). I don't remember what episode the witch one came from, but if it was near the beginning she probably feared Battler wouldn't be ready to retaliate. |
2011-10-23, 23:44 | Link #25294 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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I have a question, why is Maria intelligent to know that misusing reds to justify magic is wrong?
For example, her meta-battle with Erika. She clearly knew the rules, clearly did not plainly say Beatrice poofed it in there, and was really only fooled due to her childish innocence of believe Erika wasn't a complete bitch and thinking she understood the bigger picture of magic. Is this another example of Tohya, Ryukishi's, or whatevers, character decay? I mean, if you try to flat out deny witches exist to her, she will flat out assure you they exist, she doesn't seem like she would easily know how to avoid the real, human answer. She seems like she would just say ''UUUU, MARIA IS RIGHT, BEATRICE IS MAGIC, BEATRICE CAST A SPELL TO MAKE IT IN THERE, YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID, UUU! |
2011-10-23, 23:57 | Link #25295 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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2011-10-24, 00:00 | Link #25296 | |||
The True Culprit
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It happened in Episode 2, the second she brought up the red, really. Quote:
She can't have had an experience like that. The experience is written in because the text needs her to. Meta-characters are actors on a stage. Quote:
Even if such were the case, it DOESN'T MATTER; Beatrice deliberately lied to him and stacked the game against him and held him at fault for not being able to win as fast as she wanted despite her attempts to deliberately obfuscate information. If you're going to redefine a term, and you don't mention that you've done so, and you state the term in a magical "Always True" language, then you are both 1) Lying, and 2) Deliberately giving someone false input to take advantage of their ignorance. It's not like those reds are even what caused him to figure it out. He did so because Shkanon was really fucking obvious despite how dumb it was. The whole "Shannon and Kanon are dead thing doesn't even help Battler understand anything; it doesn't even help him understand HER, like she's trying to get him to do. It's just a piece of misdirection that slows down his progress, but does not actually serve to aid his understanding. There's no reason for it other than to dick around with him. That's why it's dishonest.
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2011-10-24, 00:07 | Link #25297 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Furthermore, I would say that Maria, the human, seems to have been taught Beato's method of proving magic in providing a seemingly impossible situation. Or rather, not the method, but the idea behind why it's necessary, similar to Maria understanding that Beatrice needs to complete the ritual to regain power.
Also, yeah, Meta scene. ALL of the witches pick up on just about every quirk of the red immediately (Bern, Evatrice, Lambda, Maria). The only person who had to learn the hard way was Battler. |
2011-10-24, 00:37 | Link #25298 |
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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So basically:
''Maria honey, my magic isn't powerful enough to manifest itself without a logical explanation and performance, so make it really hard to guess the trick so my power can grow and really not require any explanation!'' ''Uuu, will practice!'' That explains it really well, and answers my question lol...and the talk of the Meta scenes, which honestly still confuse me. |
2011-10-24, 02:02 | Link #25299 | |||
Dea ex Kakera
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Yes, Beatrice made the mystery really hard, because she wanted Battler to really remember and prove that he understood her. It was supposed to take a miracle, an eternity of games. She didn't withdraw because he took too long, she withdrew because he stopped taking the game seriously. Even though at that time she'd been honestly trying to tune the difficulty for him, what's the point if he refuses to play properly? Quote:
Even if it weren't strictly necessary, what would that even matter? There are lots of traditional mysteries that do the same thing. For instance, in Spoiler for Carr novel, details sub-spoilered:
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2011-10-24, 02:12 | Link #25300 | |||||
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You're just trying to use a Devil's Proof argument to defend Ryukishi, here. Quote:
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