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View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 11 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 20 | 28.99% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 25 | 36.23% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 17 | 24.64% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 3 | 4.35% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 4 | 5.80% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll |
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2012-07-05, 14:52 | Link #101 | |||||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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What has Houtarou lost? He had his ego inflated and subsequently deflated. As damage does, it's barely at the level of a prank. He was particularly susceptible, and it was wrong, yes, but it has nothing to do with Sekitani's situation. Quote:
And credited or not, he still got accolades. Quote:
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You could say it would have been better to not indulge that side of her, to force her to confront the mess she and her classmates unwittingly made of the project - but that tack would be almost as guilty of "thinking she knows better than the others and is in position to make those choices for them". Does she think she's more clever than she is? Maybe, but mostly I think she just thinks she knows better. Quote:
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One could also wonder why she got involved at all. She wasn't a part of it at first. She could have stayed away. Quote:
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Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2012-07-05 at 15:30. |
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2012-07-05, 16:04 | Link #102 | |||||
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 42
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To put it another way, if the situation were different and the most efficient course of action called for another way of handling Hongou, the collection of her behaviour shown suggests to me that she would have chosen the more efficient option. But she does consider the feelings of others: as part of her calculation. I don't think we should mistake this for genuine heart-felt concern. Quote:
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Anyway, as I said, I think the evidence is mostly on the table, and people will have to make up their own minds. I'm not sure if anything we say to each other will change our points of view at this point. This is just the thing about characters whose motivations are "varying shades of grey". In the end, if nothing else, they make for interesting discussion.
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2012-07-05, 16:43 | Link #103 | ||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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The closest she's come was when she said she wasn't in a position to allow the project to fail, but it really doesn't sound like much. She said it in a very impersonal way. Or maybe it's just the translation? Quote:
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2012-07-05, 17:57 | Link #104 | |
Irregular Hunter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Age: 37
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Edit 2: I decided to just take my first paragraph out and put it in the spoiler. The rest should be ok. Spoiler for Irrelevant argument:
Yes he wasn't deceived outright, but Sekitani Jun didn't know he will be a leader of a mob that would burn down a building either. He was probably told "you'll just be a leader in name only. We'll all do the work for you! You can be a hero without any work done!" Sure he know what job title he was given, but not the actual job descriptions. We all call him a bastard, but I think one can argue that the guy behind the movement could have a good intention too. Much like Irisu, he prioritized the success of the movement over other things, in the name of what best for the majority of the students. You cannot say that Jun was planned to be a scapegoat from the very beginning either. No one planed to burn a building, just strike, in worse case scenario. If that didn't happen, Sekitani Jun will be the hero, and the behind-the-scene guy will get no credit. The chance to the glory came with the risk of shouldering the blame, and no one knew ahead of time what would happen. Luckily for Houtarou, he ended up on the opposite side of What Jun did. relentlessflame already pointed out about the difference in scale, so I won't repeat it. If you need to ask, the wolves are movie critiques, and the rabbits are the rest of the class, but I think this point is irrelevant. I think it would be awesome if Houtarou actually realized this before he chose a title, and left a secret message that is similar to "Hyouka." Last edited by Hyper; 2012-07-05 at 18:13. |
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2012-07-05, 18:04 | Link #105 | |||||
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Now, I'll admit my own bias here. A mystery movie about a stab attack that doesn't go all the way (where the attacker is simply talked down by the victim), is something that I myself would have found a bit lame and tame. My impression is that Irisu herself felt the same way about Hongou's murder-less mystery. So I don't fault Irisu for not going to bat for something that she herself doesn't really believe in (i.e. Hongou's script). Quote:
With that in mind, you don't see how Irisu's first lie necessitates the rest of them? This is a classic textbook case of one lie leading to a series of lies in order to prevent the initial lie from being found out (I'll grant you that this isn't the only motivation for each lie, but it is at least a factor for each lie). Irisu can't tell the movie-makers one thing, and the Classics Club something entirely different. There's a serious risk of that inconsistency being found out; all you need is the movie-makers talking with the Classics Club. And then the entire purpose of the initial lie is defeated. If anything, this web of lies demonstrates the lengths that Irisu was willing to go to in order to protect Hongou. Quote:
Actually, I will say that this arc does a very good job of showing the dangers of a dishonest cover story, and how that can necessitate a web of lies that becomes like a fragile house of cards. When it comes tumbling down, it creates a real mess. Quote:
Irisu: I feel sorry for him. For doing something like that to him. Orekis's sister: Oh? Well, here's an idea on how to cheer him up. <Insert Idea here> Irisu: Thanks for the great idea! Hopefully that'll cheer him up. This counts as manipulation? Quote:
So, ironically, I think that Irisu was bluffing... when she said she was bluffing. Do you know what I think Irisu's real weakness is? Her real flaw? She is too soft. Oh, she has a great poker-face, but her actions tell a different story. She actually cares too much about what other people think of her. She wants everybody to like her and respect her. So hard truths, or the expressing of personal feelings that she fears will make people look down on her, never come from her mouth. She always goes for what she thinks will be the path of least resistance. She always tells people what she thinks they want to hear. Some of this is based on what she thinks will be most effective, yes, but a lot of it is also a fear of having to stand her ground in a heated situation or having people not liking her for saying or doing something that displeases them. This is why she froze, as Anh_Minh rightly puts it I think, when confronted by Oreki. She didn't know how to handle it. At all. She's not used to having to diffuse people being upset with her, because she carefully avoids doing or saying anything that is likely to cause that. If you want another reason why she didn't go to bat for Hongou more than she did, there's a big one right there, in my view. This is an interpretation of Irisu's character that I've been gradually working out through this discussion. It was just a vague jumble of ideas in my mind until now. But after reading Anh_Minh's points, reading through this excellent discussion, and thinking more deeply on it, it's an interpretation of Irisu's character that I feel pretty comfortable with, if not confident with. And the main reason I wrote this reply is to put it out there. I doubt many people will agree with it, but perhaps it'll spark some deeper thought on Irisu's character at least.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-07-05 at 19:09. Reason: Point refinement. |
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2012-07-05, 18:30 | Link #106 | |
Irregular Hunter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Age: 37
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It's amazing how we can interpret the same thing so differently. I don't think Irisu will have any problem standing in a heated discussion. Her action tell me she does not care about what people think as long as she can get the result she want. She avoid being hated because she would not be able to make them work for the result otherwise. Thankfully this is not science and we can view things differently, so I won't try to convince you otherwise. Last edited by Hyper; 2012-07-05 at 18:42. |
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2012-07-05, 18:59 | Link #107 | ||
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Why not just wipe her hands of the whole matter and forget about it? The movie is done, it was a success. Mission Accomplished. Finito. Goodbye. But no, Irisu can't easily put aside Oreki getting upset with her because it bothers her that he probably doesn't like her or respect her now.
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2012-07-05, 19:32 | Link #109 | ||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 42
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If you were to wipe out that closing chat log, then maybe I could buy it. But the story seems to purposely throw her motivation into doubt. Quote:
Also, the lies to butter Houtarou up were not necessary either. Quote:
And besides, if she really thought that Houtarou would want to be comforted by her at this point, then she's an idiot. He has no reason at all to take anything she says as true; that bridge is burned forever. Quote:
Basically, your perspective depends on A~ta~shi's assessment of Irisu being wrong. And to believe that, you have to have a different way of interpreting Irisu's panicked reaction to the accusation, and her answer. I'm still not convinced that your rationale fits the evidence. Quote:
Nothing you've said so far has convinced me that A~ta~shi's assessment of Irisu's motivation is mistaken or inconsistent with what is shown (whether she herself is just as bad notwithstanding). Quote:
Edit: I realize you said you just wanted to get it out there for its own sake, and you realize that not many will likely agree with you, so I too just want to present the counterarguments that I can think of. But again, as I've said before, I'm okay with people considering the evidence and coming to their own conclusion here.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-07-05 at 19:52. |
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2012-07-05, 20:10 | Link #110 | |||||||||||||||||
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It's not because the accusation is true. It would be because the accusation is so deeply offensive to her because it's not true. Quote:
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If she's going to get help from other students, she's going to need to get help on the pretense of the cover story. Like I said, she can't tell the movie-makers one thing, and the Classics Club something entirely different, because that runs a serious risk of the initial lie being found out. Quote:
1. Her main motivation is, as she said in chat, to ensure that the movie project meets with a successful completion. That doesn't mean that's her only motivation. 2. If it was her only motivation, she wouldn't have went through so many hoops to protect Hongou. So protecting Hongou was a secondary motivation for Irisu, imo. 3. What does lying or honesty have to do with the purity of one's motivation? A chubby woman asks her husband "Does this dress make me look fat?". The husband lies and says "No dear, you look beautiful in that dress". Does the lie mean his motivation to avoid hurting his wife's feelings is impure? Quote:
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And even if you're right, that implies that she's at least feeling guilty about it, doesn't it? Quote:
In my view, she clearly feels guilty about hurting Oreki. So it's hardly inconceivable that she'd want to find a way to smooth things over with him. Quote:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-07-05 at 20:46. Reason: Fixing an argument. |
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2012-07-05, 21:16 | Link #111 | |||||
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 42
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Well, this will be the end from me, because now we're just repeating ourselves. Again, I will appeal to the public to decide which point of view seems to most match their impression of the character based on what is shown in the show.
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Again, I think that last chat line is the only time in the whole story we ever saw her drop her facade and reveal her true thoughts. Quote:
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Again, as I said before, I've never claimed that she's pure evil; everything is shades of grey. But I think whatever degree to which she ever really cared for any of the people involved is overshadowed by the methods she used and the accusations thrown that question her motives. So I can't support a "her heart was in the right place" argument. I do think she thought she was doing what she had to do, and using the methods that were familiar/comfortable to her. I don't think she's beyond hope or redemption, but the story hasn't gone there yet. And as I said to start this whole conversation, having that chat conversation at the end is essential if we are going to see any character development for Irisu in this story. Without that, she probably wouldn't have been pressured to consider what really motivates her... but I don't know if we'll ever find out what comes of it. If this is the end of Irisu in the story... then we'll just have to base our conclusion on what we've seen and believe, and move on.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-07-05 at 21:39. |
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2012-07-05, 21:35 | Link #112 |
Beyond the Fringe
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Gosh, golly, gee whiz! This Irisu debate just keeps going 'round, and 'round, and 'round, and 'round.
It's like listening to a debate on health care between die-hard Democrats and die-hard Republicans. There will never be any agreement. There will never be any concessions. But there is lots, and lots, and lots of talk. Perhaps it's time to move on to the next topic of discussion. That's my opinion. |
2012-07-05, 21:55 | Link #113 | |
Irregular Hunter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Age: 37
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To me, in this story so far, viewing Irisu in a good light is as hard as saying the guy behind Sekitani Jun is a good person. It is possible. He wanted the movement(project) to success. He did not want to hurt Jun. In fact, he wanted Jun to be a hero. It just turned out the way he did not expect. However, I do not think anyone will be convinced. |
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2012-07-05, 23:39 | Link #116 |
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Since the Irisu discussion has admittedly been very long, I'm putting this reply in spoiler space so people tired of the discussion can more easily skip over this post. I intend for this to be my last word on the topic.
Spoiler for Reply to relentlessflame and Hyper:
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2012-07-05, 23:41 | Link #117 |
mechaii
Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 44
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I'm still trying to figure that out for myself, so I want to know what others think, especially from those that have given more thought to Irisu's internal clockwork than I have thus far. But it did strike me as extremely unnatural (I am a frequent visitor to the country btw). I doubt that this detail was thrown in randomly.
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2012-07-05, 23:56 | Link #118 | |
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But more seriously, where/when did Irisu shake Oreki's hand? If it was in this episode, I can't find it. And I've looked this episode over repeatedly simply for the purposes of the ongoing Irisu discussion.
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2012-07-06, 00:01 | Link #119 | |
Irregular Hunter
Join Date: Oct 2010
Age: 37
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Now we can argue if Tomoe is actually so awesome that she know this is what exactly will happen. Does she know Irisu well enough to predict what method she will use or she has to suggest it herself? Does she have enough confidence in Houtarou and know that he'll eventually figure it out? I do not know. Where is Oreki Tomoe thread again? Edit: It was last episode, when he finished his "solution." |
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2012-07-06, 00:09 | Link #120 | ||
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Wouldn't a more natural way to start off with be "I do have some bad news, though, senpai. Your brother figured things out, I'm afraid." and then get to the "I feel sorry..." part? So I think that a.ta.shi also already knows that Oreki knows the truth. Quote:
From what I can make out, Tomoe knows everything about Oreki's part in this, and she's not expressing anger over that part of it. Which makes sense if Tomoe was "in" on this, at least for the most part. In which case, Irisu already knows that Tomoe is somebody that's fine with her brother being manipulated. Edit: On the handshake issue. I just watched that. Well, I'm not sure what to make out of it. Oreki himself was surprised by the gesture I think. Perhaps Irisu shook his hand as a symbol of finality and accomplishment? In the hopes that he'd put the movie out of his mind now, and not dig any deeper?
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-07-06 at 00:22. |
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