2014-11-03, 13:55 | Link #34601 | ||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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There is no proof that the culprit who killed Eva and Hideyoshi was invited into the room (although I would not find it surprising), nor that while the culprit was there, Hideyoshi left the main room to go and take a shower. There is also no proof that the murder weapon was an ice pick or anything that resembles an ice pick, is there? We do know that one of the Stakes was placed in the wound, but that does not mean it was the murder weapon. And it might not even be possible to kill anyone with the Stakes, since they are actually only novelty paperweights. And, in episode 4 when Battler was examining Kyrie's corpse, which had been left with a stake in its forehead, he deduced that she probably was not killed by the stake. Episode 4 Quote:
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2014-11-03, 14:03 | Link #34602 | |||||||
A Rather Brillig Ember
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: North America
Age: 27
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2014-11-03, 15:17 | Link #34603 | ||||||||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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I'm not sure it's possible for Jessica to survive to the end of all the games. In ep 2, there is a reference to Jessica's corpse, and in ep 4, Battler was the only person who lived right to the end. Quote:
Why is Jessica chick Beato, and why is Rosa Beatrice the Elder? What is the connection between the two of them which means that together, they make up the full Beatrice? Quote:
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What you are saying about Battler's testimony is contradicted both in episode 1 and episode 4. In the part of ep 4 which I quoted earlier, Battler looks at the corpse of Kyrie (supposedly killed by a stake to the forehead) and decides that it must have been stuck in the wound after death. And in episode 1, Battler later explains that he never got a good look at the stakes which were in Eva and Hideyoshi. Quote:
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2014-11-03, 16:09 | Link #34604 | ||||
The True Culprit
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This is a clever and important part, as EP7 establishes that Maria characterizes people based on how they behave, not how they appear. Anyone would be "Beatrice" to her if they act out the part properly, dress or no dress. Quote:
Of course, the answer is that the chain was cut, making Kanon and Genji liars, but that's all the more reason they should be suspected above anyone else. Also, the idea of shoving a pick into someone's head through brute strength is a red herring. It's as easy as shooting someone, then sticking an ice pick into the wound. Quote:
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Also, technically speaking, all of them had "wounds resembling gunshot wounds that became fatal." IF one wants to argue semantics, the wounds resemble ones that became fatal, but that does not mean they actually were.
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2014-11-03, 18:09 | Link #34605 | ||||||||||
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Join Date: Apr 2014
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Ok. I've already explained this half a year ago, but here is a recap:
There are 2 references to Jessica's corpse. Here they are: When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included As you can see in the second sentence, the word corpse is omitted from red, making it from corpse of Jessica is also included to simply Jessica is also included which means that at that time an alive Jessica exists in the room. And with regards to Jessica's corpse in the first sentence, it has to do with pulling words out of context. Just because a complete red sentence is true doesn't mean that we can take an arbitrary part of it and declare it as true too. In other words just because words "Jessica's corpse" exist inside a red sentence doesn't mean that this corpse is really hers. Something that would really prove her death would be saying Jessica is dead or not including her among alive people in the room, but as we see with Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included she IS included among living people. Quote:
He saw everyone being dead, but Jessica's corpse which he observed wasn't hers, so she was alive. Quote:
She basically hates both her parents. And she brings a freaking brass knuckle to school. I mean She brings a freaking brass knuckle to school. That to me signifies a mental trauma. Quote:
But there is an exception to this rule. On the day that Sakutarou was killed by Rosa, Beatrice appeared before Maria in her own home. And that one was of course Rosa. Quote:
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From what I understand, Jessica gave them golden brooch as a magic trick, to give Kanon some courage so that she could make out with him, and she gave it to Shannon first, because she couldn't give it to Kanon directly. And it was most probably not even golden, but some cheap toy which looked golden instead. But her plan backfired badly, as Kanon not only rejected her, but also trampled her brooch and ran away, while at the same time George and Shannon ended up just fine.. Quote:
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But how can Beatrice say this red and not create a contradiction? It's actually simple. All you have to do is to travel in time. Red truths that are said in present time are bound to the time at which they are proclaimed. And even though, Battler and Beatrice are discussing events in Jessica's room, they are doing it from a completely different timeframe, in which Jessica is no longer hiding in her room. So when Beatrice proclaims that noone is hiding, she says truth. Quote:
But my other points still hold here. I can invoke Knox's 8th Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!! And based on it I can reject any theory that states that Eva and Hideyoshi were killed somewhere else and then transported to this room, or that Hideyosi was not killed in the shower, and was transported to shower after death. Because there is no evidence that their bodies were moved after death. And based on this we can establish that the scene of murder is authentic. Eva was killed in the room while Hideyoshi was taking a shower, and soon after Hideyoshi himself was killed in the shower. While they were alive, lock and chain should be working just fine. Otherwise it makes no sense for them to stop in a room with broken chain. And so whoever killed them must have been invited. It's quite unlikely that Eva would invite anyone other than George, and the exception is of course if Eva was someone's accomplice and she invited them to prepare for crime. However that assumption brings with itself a whole lot of contradictions which I explained earlier why Eva can't be an accomplice. Last edited by eX_ploit; 2014-11-03 at 19:46. |
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2014-11-03, 18:35 | Link #34606 | |||
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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Thank you for your replieing Golden Land.
I didn't know how Japanese numerus works. This part seems to have some quirks in its choices of words like "exit to escape" or "way to escape". Please let me show this point. If Battler was really was kidnapped then the door (from the hallway) to the guestroom could has lost its purpose of escape and Erika requested red for this: "The definition of going in or out refers to when someone crosses the boundary between the guest room and the area outside it." As I see it, Battler hasn't to leave through the door because it's not necessary for him to escape. Quote:
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If we implies that the red "Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left." only applies to the time of the logic error then Kanon dissapeared or can be rescued after time of the logic error. I think this solution is very dumb because it uses word twists. |
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2014-11-03, 19:25 | Link #34607 | |||||||
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Join Date: Apr 2014
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This is from first game. Quote:
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Do you want to say that they were together the whole time between 1st and 2nd twilight? Quote:
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So your assertion that personalities are humans is the same as saying that Shkannon theory is false. Quote:
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2014-11-03, 20:05 | Link #34608 | |
A Rather Brillig Ember
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: North America
Age: 27
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Or she could be referring to Shannon, who was in the room at the time. (If I remember correctly.)
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2014-11-03, 20:36 | Link #34609 | |||||||
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He saw the corpse, but he didn't see her face. Because she was lying on the chest, face into the floor. And when Battler testifies about it he doesn't mention anything about her face. Quote:
That's funny because Battler himself describes them the exact same way, and he knows that they are dead. This is what Battler himself said about them. Quote:
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2014-11-03, 21:30 | Link #34610 | ||||||
A Rather Brillig Ember
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: North America
Age: 27
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Last edited by Mr. Dent; 2014-11-03 at 21:56. |
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2014-11-03, 22:49 | Link #34611 | ||||
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Join Date: Apr 2014
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Yes, but it can't kill a real character.
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Are they humans or not? If they are not humans than they are rejected by this red No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game If they are humans then they must die from fatal gunshot wound. I can already see you trying something like "they are humans when it's convenient for me and not humans otherwise" Quote:
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This makes her very gullible, but at the same time ensures that she says what she really believes. So if she says that she saw Beatrice in her full outfit, then that is what she really saw. Quote:
And the only way for human side to determine what's true and what's not are red truth and detective's presence, both of which are absent in this theatre, therefore literally any bullshit can be shown there. Especially considering who gamemaster is. Ok, I just replayed ep6 ??? party, and there is a very interesting dialogue between Bernkastel and Featherine before Bern becomes gamemaster. And Bernkastel pretty much openly admits that she will fuck up the truth horribly in 7th game. Last edited by eX_ploit; 2014-11-03 at 23:50. |
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2014-11-04, 01:29 | Link #34612 | |||||||||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Of course, the person talking there is Beatrice, and she is going to kill Battler with the bomb. This is after 12AM, though, so it may not count. However, aside from that, it is not possible for the corpse observed by Battler to be not Jessica's. He clearly observed it. And he was the detective during the 4th game: his viewpoint is objective; he cannot mis-identify a corpse, and has the ability to examine a corpse perfectly. Jessica is definitely dead. He looks at her corpse carefully to see what killed her - and he sees that half of her head is split open and that there were no other wounds on her. Quote:
I see you are talking elsewhere about how the only things humans have to rely on is the red truth and the detective. But if you say that Battler did not correctly examine Jessica's corpse, you are saying that you do not believe in the skills of the detective, and you are simply picking and choosing when to believe the red and the detective as it fits your theory. As you have pointed out above, It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!! but you are saying that clues were not presented to Battler, the detective with an objective viewpoint, about Jessica's corpse when he examined it, and you are resolving the case using them. Quote:
The guest room was sealed at the time that Battler's 'corpse' was examined. This indicates that the corpse is a fake and Battler is still alive – the corpse is merely a thing being called a corpse, not a real one. A corpse is by definition a dead human body. Saying that something is Jessica's corpse is the same as saying that it is Jessica's dead body. If it is not Jessica's dead body, then that would appear to be a case of lying using the red. Even if this were not so...she would still have to be hiding in the room. But the red means that she was not hiding in the room. Quote:
No way, I can't believe you're saying that the red suddenly does not apply right in the middle of a paragraph because of time travel. That is a completely ridiculous suggestion. Beatrice is talking specifically about Jessica's room at the time when Jessica's corpse was discovered. It is not ambiguous. There are no clues to suggest that she is actually talking about a different event. You are saying there that Beatrice is straight up lying with the red. You can't pick and choose. I say that the corpse must have been accurately identified as Jessica's, because it is stated as her corpse in red, and because the detective with his objective viewpoint observed it. The reason Beatrice goes "oops" and has to add her in as an afterthought is because Jessica, being a corpse, no longer counts as a human who exists. However, let's say for the sake of argument that it is actually Kanon. You cannot say that the red Jessica is also included is effective but the red that no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding. does not, because it is convenient for you that with no warning or clues, Beatrice used TIME TRAVEL half way through the paragraph so that the red you don't like is a lie. No. If you do not trust the red at all, it's not possible to use it to reason with, and it is silly to claim that you are relying upon it. Quote:
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I can point out a few small things off the top of my head, at least. Jessica gives the scorpion charm to her mother in ep 1, and feels bad to see her looking so lonely. She thinks that her mother is doing her best, and tries to be kind to her even though it doesn't come easily to her. Natsuhi, in turn, tries to be considerate of Jessica, but is unable to convey her intentions. They're both very awkward with each other, but it is not that they don't care. Jessica becomes very upset at seeing the ugliness in the family conference; at times she's protective of her parents; at other times, when they're shown to die in the games, she becomes distressed and furious. Of course, if you're saying she was the one behind their deaths, you can say she was acting. In a series like Umineko, I wouldn't say that comedic use of brass knuckles was the sign of the utmost mental trauma in the series by any means, but oh well, I don't know if you'll agree. Quote:
So, Beatrice was lying to Maria about being unable to revive Sakutarou. Okay, that's at least plausible. But, it would also be terribly cruel. Rosa is a terrible, terrible mother, but in some ways she refuses to understand the impact of her actions on Maria. But Beatrice really understands her. She knows how much Rosa is hurting Maria. Unless you're saying that the Beatrice who couldn't revive Sakutarou was Jessica? It really seems incoherent. Quote:
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It's not that strange for somebody to not be able to conceive for a long time. Every now and then, people who doctors have told are 100% sterile for certain have surprise kids, and Natsuhi's doctors had been unable to find anything wrong with her. Natsuhi narrated "I still don't know what caused my inability to become pregnant. I even went to see noted physicians. I underwent humiliating examinations. ......But I was always just told that they didn't understand the reason..." (Really, if Natsuhi was cleared by the physicians, if one of the couple had a problem it would be more likely to be Krauss.) George is about 5 years older than Jessica. Hideyoshi had already been adopted into the family years before Jessica was born. Eva started to get ideas of maybe George being the next head eventually and trying to persuade Kinzo, but there was no particular crunch point. Sorry, but there really doesn't seem to be any good evidence that Jessica is Rudolf's kid. I don't think there are any clues, other than Battler and Jessica being both born in the same year or so. |
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2014-11-04, 01:46 | Link #34613 | |||||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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This definition doesn't require him to be escaping: "Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?" "Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. " But, Battler was definitely rescued from the room by someone, and that was definitely Kanon. Is there any person who could have come to "kidnap" Battler from the threshold between the rooms? A lot of characters were dead, and a lot of them were probably sealed in. Quote:
Certainly, the text says that Erika checked the room very thoroughly. She wasn't even the detective at the time, but nonetheless we have the red that "No hidden places that are impossible for Erika-san to find exist inside the guest room.". So, personally I am satisfied that Erika searched the room extremely carefully and would not have overlooked a hidden passage or place. Erika even checked to make sure that she would be able to find a hidden place. Quote:
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What Beatrice needed to do to fix the logic error was to revise the gameboard logic so that the trick of having somebody replace Battler in the room would be effective. When Kanon did that, the logic was fixed but the gameboard didn't seem to spring back into life. Quote:
Kanon definitely set the chain lock after Battler left. "'The rescuer' means someone who reset the chain lock after Battler undid it. It does not matter whether they intended to save Battler or not. " "The one who rescued Battler was, without a doubt, Kanon." And "There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset." I don't see how Kanon could have got out of that situation. |
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2014-11-04, 05:14 | Link #34614 | |||
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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The game's end is similar to an open end because Erika didn't specify the exact time. TIme's is very vague like in the 5th game. Quote:
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After Kanon hid in the closet he moved somehow inside the closet outside! Erika is the rescuer of Kanon. Kanon is not in the guest room but he didn't left the guestroom because the closet is a section of the guest room. It'd be a logic error itself. |
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2014-11-04, 06:05 | Link #34615 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Join Date: Apr 2014
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However, your version of detective's authority seems somehow... supernatural. If we are talking about Erika for example, then yes, her powers are somewhat supernatural. Because that's how she is introduced. You can't expect the same level from Battler. Quote:
Detective such as Battler doesn't automatically solve everything he touches. Instead he truthfully reports everything he discovers to the reader. In that particular scene you say that he can't misidentify the corpse, but he never even attempted to identify it. That thought, that it could be someone else never crossed his mind. Quote:
And if there was any description that he actually recognized her face for example, then I would gladly accept that he is not mistaken. But the problem is that there are no remarks about her face at all. Which is strange because when he examines Shannon there is a remark about her lovely face. Quote:
Contradictions between what Jessica told him on the phone and what he saw in her room lead to this conclusion too. And disapearence of Kanon's corpse in the same 2 games where Jessica is observed dead. Quote:
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In other words this corpse is not the subject of the red statement. And in the next Sentence, where it does directly talk about corpse, word corpse is omitted from red. Quote:
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And about no humans exist that you were not aware of Jessica is not included here because he was already aware about her existance. And at this point Battler argued with Beatrice that she is the unknown 19th person, so this is red against that. Quote:
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If that was the case it gives Eva and Hideyoshi a little bit of time, and so we would expect to find them in different poses Quote:
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She gave her this charm and the next morning there was blood on Natsuhi's door. Whoever painted it there must've known about the charm, but the only ones who knew were Natsuhi and Jessica. Quote:
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As for the connection between Jessica and Rosa it can actually be Maria. As we know in childhood Rosa did meet and accidentally killed real Beatrice. So what happens then, when for example, Rosa takes Maria to Rokkenjima and after finishing her business with Kinzo, tries to find Maria, only to stumble upon her in the company of Beatrice. Quote:
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But how could he know beforehand that one of his children would die? |
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2014-11-04, 07:18 | Link #34616 | |
A Rather Brillig Ember
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: North America
Age: 27
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2014-11-04, 09:15 | Link #34617 | |
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And your definition of the detective in Umineko is incomplete. The detective character cannot tell the reader false information, thus when Battler says he finds "Jessica's corpse" in EP4, it is Jessica's corpse and not "something that looks like Jessica's corpse". With all your ideas behind why Shkannontrice is an elaborate lie, I'd like you to explain this chapter to me: Translation of EP8 Chapter 25 (Manga) |
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2014-11-04, 14:38 | Link #34618 | |||||||||||||
The True Culprit
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And, you know, you're ignoring her characterization in EP7 where she basically literally states this. Quote:
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Also people don't get wet in the rain and leave wet footprints, by Ryukishi's own Word of God, so. Quote:
It's a pretty important insight. Quote:
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Oh wait, that's literally the first twilight of the second game. Quote:
In your attempt to find loopholes in everything you're missing the symbolic truth of the novel. That effectively makes you one of the goats who doesn't trust anything that isn't Red, which was Erika's downfall. Quote:
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2014-11-04, 21:44 | Link #34620 | |||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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