2016-02-17, 18:01 | Link #35521 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Ange ends up reading the book and attempting to jump of a building. She lands on the safety net and when she opens her eyes the magic ending follows (Ange leaves the leadership to Okonogi and becomes a writer). Basically all the meta we saw involving Ange (from her meeting with Bern in Ep 3 to... well, all Ep 8) is implied to be a travel her soul took (possibly during the short moments in whcih she was unconscious after her fall). To get better explanations I recommend reading Ep 8 manga version Vol 9 chap 35, 36, 38. Quote:
For more technical details: In Ep 1 Shannon's corpse wasn't in the shed (Hideyoshi and Kanon lied) and Kanon wasn't staked (Nanjo lied). Sayo is killed off by the bomb while wearing Beatrice's dress. In Ep 2 Kanon of course wasn't staked (his body disappeared) and Shannon/Sayo committed suicide only after she killed off the other victims. In Ep 3 Shannon/Kanon faked having been killed and Nanjo lied when he said they were dead. Sayo is likely killed off by the bomb after Battler died and Eva escaped. In Ep 4 Kanon of course wasn't shoot by the Chiesters (his body disappears again, this time in the well) and Shannon/Sayo committed suicide AFTER everyone (minus Battler) was dead. In short only in two episodes Battler can see Sayo's corpse and take note she's really dead. In all the other circumstances she was pretending. Quote:
She's basically seeing and hearing things differently from how they're presented to us as we are instead watching Ep 5 from the narrator's perspective, which is unreliable and describes things that aren't happening (Shannon and Kanon being someplace at the same time, Battler seeing Kinzo and so on). Erika also admits that, in the same way as she hadn't paid attentions to the corpses, she hadn't paid attention to Shannon and Kanon as Bern wanted her to focus on Natsuhi and believed that one of them was always busy some other place without questioning things too much. Erika will reconstruct the games and analyze them from outside and not from her piece's perspective only after Ep 6... and as soon as she'll do she'll realize the discrepancies. No idea if Dlanor and Co know the truth... for all we know it's possible they didn't hear the narration either... but they're 'tools' in Erika's hands not detectives. They likely can't tell her the truth, it would count as breaking Knox's 2nd (they're supernatural agencies) so even if we assume they noticed the discrepancies between narration and the truth, it's unlikely they could tell Erika about it. |
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2016-02-18, 11:28 | Link #35522 | |||||||||||||
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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I think you mean that if Ange suspects in murdering her she will kill you. And you said she is a murderer. Law-wise she acted correct for her own good. It was likely self-defense because of strong suspicion. Since you said she hallucinaded, you cannot actually believe yourself that Ange became Black Ange, or what? In other words you cannot trust the whole scene, but you still insist she gained suddenly weapon knowledge and she killed for real? Then I would ask you if you really have the right idea about distrusting Ange vs. Mental disorder Ange, they are 2 different things. Amasuka's responses "Let's see... maybe get you really drunk and ..." and "Well, that may be true." (to the Today are perfect locked room conditions) to Ange's "theories" speak for themself. Since there aren't any hints what happened after or how exact the circumstances are, Cpt. Kawabata might be a really unlucky guy in most cases (shot by Ange, Amakusa or Kasumi's henchmen). But Okonogi and a third-party member, Cpt. Kawabata, knew that Ange was in danger. It is strange that the Sumaderas used a boat/ferry to Rokkenjima and had knowledge of the unofficial harbour of Rokkenjima and most of the seamen but Cpt. Kawabata dare to get near Rokkenjima after the incident. It's unlikely that Kasumi + henchmen would had waited the whole time (Ange's interviewing the relatives of the servants before heading to the island lasted for one day). TLTR Ange supposed how her other outcome might be. Not necessary a bad ending, not necessary evil Ange, not necessary deaths. In other words the manga changed the meaning of the trick ending into "what life will become if I choose this?“. About the conscience: She remembers in both manga endings (while the trick ending was hypothetical) the final ceremony. And because the trick ending appeared in Ange's mind first the whole scene is her bad conscience. She had been telling bad things to herself in order to stop choosing this. Through I don't understand if this might be a rational idea if she thinks t Quote:
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"you even have met at some point?" "Yes...A long time ago... just once...." [shows scene where she saw the diary for the first time] At that time she hadn't the key for the diary. Remembering this in the magic ending should avert that Prime-Ange reached this ending or she kept telling to herself that she never saw and read the diary. Quote:
As you commented that Ange become like Erika, Erika used her past-problem as a reason to become an intelectual rapist. Ange used her future plan as a reason. I admit that they share traits. Through it's strange Ange averted her plan with „Then I will never be able to escape the chain of misfortune of my family...“ after having a view of the other outcome. She simply believe she cannot have a happy life without magic. That's pretty bitter to have such thinking. Quote:
I won't say it was right or wrong that Sayo first run to find someone. The aftermath doesn't depend on the cause. Finding Battler was luck. The bomb mechanism can be manipulated or the gold room can be locked. Quote:
but it would depend on what Ange plans are. Since she had that brilliant idea before reaching Rokkenjima, she could't prevent that Amasuka accompany her. It would be suspicious if she had changed her mind about traveling to the island. Since it was not shown how the captain or the bodyguard would response, it will be speculative. Quote:
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If he described it as foul play why didn't he redesigned this scenario? Well he didn't banned it and decided to include this, so who cares? Quote:
Yes this Battler's chance to change direction. But still „all games“ would refer everything without exceptions. Then Kinzo's status could be alive if „all“ don't apply for the following games. Quote:
Know that love, hate, fear and joy can give us new strenght. Obviously positive feels are promoted media. It would totally affect the story: we could ignore the love story and solve the game. Ryukishi must have known that some people solved this way without paying attention on love. Why they included the extra in the manga is a mystery to me. To me Erika gave a half-solved explanation to Battler and just to show off how hateful she is in this one-sided battle. I like VN-version more,both were showing their passion and pleasure in dueling each other. |
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2016-02-18, 15:53 | Link #35523 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Listen, let's agree to disagree.
For you it was okay for Ange to kill whose people. For me it wasn't. At each his own. Quote:
Are you now meaning you think she's dead in the trick ending? Or something else? Quote:
Honestly I can't find a single quote confirming this through all the trick ending. Yes., it would be over. And if everyone had run into Kyrie and Rudolf before she were to warn them it would be over for them as well. She's trying to save people from an immediate threat and she has to act fast. Also, if Rudolf and Kyrie were to find her still alive they would probably check she hadn't shut down the bomb mechanism. Quote:
He doesn't know his parents are killing people, when he finds dead people his first aim is to warn the others so he wouldn't barricade himself in. Quote:
I've the feeling you hadn't understood what I said but whatever. Quote:
Both Kyrie and Asumu went to the hospital when they were close to giving birth (they both got pregnant at around the same time, only Kyrie noticed later), but Asumu's baby was born dead in the day in which he should have birth. Quote:
Lambda too let Erika constructs her Natsuhi culprit theory and allowed for the Battler culprit theory in Ep 5 for a purpose. Quote:
Dlanor asks for proofs when Battler uses the red about Natsuhi because Battler isn't a witch and can't use a red given by a witch to construct a theory without using proofs. We see that all of Erika's blue truths were turned into red truths by Bern. But anyway which would be the objective proof that Battler isn't the culprit? Quote:
Ep 7's game have a living Kinzo. The same goes for Ep 8. I'm aware of that. I can't see though how this support your idea that Erika gained love and solved the game thanks to it. |
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2016-02-20, 05:50 | Link #35524 | ||||||||
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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I do not feel like to mark Ange as Old Ange or New Ange. Quote:
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The anime adapation mentioned the stillbirth. Quote:
If Battler made this theory wouldn't it be the same foul play Ryukishi described? For the objective proof: Battler never called Natsuhi (for whatever reason). I'm aware of that. I can't see though how this support your idea that Erika gained love and solved the game thanks to it.[/QUOTE] |
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2016-02-20, 08:32 | Link #35525 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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You're not persuading me what she did was okay but you're sure what she did was okay. I'm also having a hard time understanding your theory and I notice when I'm asking for clarifications or pointing out things you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. We're not going to change our minds. We're not understanding each other. To sum it up we're at a stalemate. If reaching a point where one tells you he doesn't agree with you but doesn't feel like continuing the discussing any further feels like a victory to you... well, suit yourself. Have a party. I don't really care. |
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2016-02-20, 17:42 | Link #35526 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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can someone tell me how beatrice was trying to get battler to remember his promise from the games, because i can't understand how. also how was yasu was "forced" to commit the game like murders.
Last edited by marianx; 2016-02-20 at 18:03. |
2016-02-21, 09:54 | Link #35528 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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After learning the truth about herself in 1984 Sayo started to spiral into depression. The truth basically told her that she was a incestual bastard, unable to marry the people she loves due to them being related to her and unable to have the babies she so longed to have (they probably also tossed in that her chromosomes were XY and not XX...). In short that her dream to marry the person she loves and have a family can't be fulfilled. She also is disgusted by the condition of her body. She also started to learn of the crimes the Ushiromiya family members committed (Kinzo caused the slaughtering on Rokkanjima, kept his daughter trapped in Kuwadorian and abused of her, Krauss committed embezzlement, Krauss and Natsuhi covered up Kinzo's death to keep on taking advantage of his, Natsuhi murdered a woman and attempted to murder Sayo as well then covered up everything, Rosa abuses Maria to the point social services started getting interested, Rudolf switched Kyrie and Asumu's babies and he's into fraudolent business, Kyrie is from a Yakuza family, Gohda, who regularly bullies her was fired by his previous place due to a sexual affair, Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa, despite knowing what was going on between Kinzo and her mother kept their mouths shut and covered up for him, like they did with Natsuhi. They also accepted bribes to keep their mouths shut about Kinzo being dead). To make the story short by 1986 she thought that the best solution for her and her family was to commit suicide. I'm not the best to explain this but Japan has different views about suicide and about what a family head can and can't decide. As a result suicide didn't look to her as bad as it could look to us and, when she told Genji "I'm the family head and I think to commit suicide and drag with me everyone else on the island" he agrees to support her (like he had supported Kinzo in all his crimes, really). Still, a side of Sayo would want to be saved so she start devising a murder game as her form of group suicide and rules that will stop it from happening (if someone were to find the messages in the bottles she tossed away on the 3rd and manages to warn someone he might have stopped the game, if someone solves the epitaph the game will be stopped, if someone discovers she's behind the crimes the game will be stopped and so on). As she plans various possible solutions while a side of her feels helated at devising all those possibilities another shrinks away in horror. Still she can't stop herself. Among the possible ideas for the games she considered killing Rudolf and Kyrie early on BECAUSE Kyrie is smart and doesn't trust people easily so she could pose a problem (see Ep 1 & 2) and to test George, Jessica and Battler's feelings for her (see Ep 4). [See Confession of the Golden Witch 1, 2 & 3 for more details] Ultimately though in Prime the adults solve the epitaph and she stops the game prior to the start of the 5th of October so we can't tell if she would have truly managed to carry out the murders or how. The adults argue among them, bullets flies and ultimately Kyrie and Rudolf start slaughtering everyone. She gets shoot and assumed dead. (see Ep 7 Teaparty for more details) She's not, she just fainted. She wakes up and attempts to save everyone else by warning them about Rudolf and Kyrie's intentions. She only manages to find Battler still alive (everyone else is dead) and escapes with him in the underground tunnel. The island explodes but they survive. She puts Battler on a boat, planning for him to reach salvation and for herself to remain behind (and likely commit suicide). Battler drags her on the boat but she'll jump from it and drown herself. Battler, in attempt to save her, will lose his memory (we don't know how, maybe he had an embolus... or something else really). Sayo, or better Sayo's soul, wakes up in the Purgatorio. She's looking like Beatrice. With her there's also Battler only he's suffering of complete amnesia. Instead than telling him the truth she thinks she can find a resolution by challenging him to the games she had planned in hope he'll solve them, remembers about her and understand her and her problems. Legend of the golden witch starts being played. [See Ep 8 chap 37 for more details] In short: Battler remembering the promise wasn't a goal, it would be a clue for him about her identity and motive and something she would have liked him to do (she wanted to know if he remembered it, if he was serious when he did it and so on). Sayo doesn't murder anyone in the end and, due to this, we can't know if she would have had the guts to follow her plans. No one forced her to think of such a plan, nor in Prime nor in the meta. She thought it was a good plan... and she was obviously wrong. She however believed that since Battler was a mistery lover this would also work as a clue for him. It doesn't. Sayo has problems differentiating between fantasy and reality. She doesn't get that people faces mystery books with a spirit completely different from the one used to face real life murders and that presented with real murders Battler won't even think solving them using mystery rules. It's a huge mistake on her part. Did she had fun torturing Battler? Not as much as she pretended to have by playing the role of the cruel witch (it's pretty obvious in Ep 4 teaparty). She much preferred when in Ep 3 they had a moment in which they were getting along. She had however been raised in an abusive and bullying environment were all this was almost like the norm and in which she often got the short end of the stick so a side of her clearly enjoyed being on the bully's side for once. She's definitely not a saint and she lacks empathy as she often doesn't realize the consequences her own actions will have on others (much to Battler's horror she expected him to end up on enjoying the game and believed that if she were to show him a 'really gruesome' first twilight he would get 'interested' in it instead than grief stricken, desperate, hurt and generally disgusted at her). Her enjoyment of being on the bully's side wasn't enough to encourage her to keep on continuing the games though. Ultimately she didn't want to harrass Battler but to have him back and when she feared this wouldn't happen she gave up. |
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2016-02-21, 15:08 | Link #35531 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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There's no hint though she's her mother and her grandmother beyond the fantasy story she tells Battler about her past and Kinzo's obsession about Beatrice reincarnating in her descendants. But well, who knows... |
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2016-02-21, 15:48 | Link #35532 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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jjblue i dont know if i agree with you that the promise is not the goal. at the end of episode 8 manga it says she wants battler to find the her that is her promise, the word promise also is repeatedly throughout the whole novel multiple times. if anything the promise is the core of umineko.
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2016-02-21, 18:33 | Link #35533 | ||
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until you tear away the illusion hiding me and find the true me, the one with whom you exchanged a promise (= the girl who loved you, waited for you and tried to become your ideal woman). Sayo wants him to find HER, the person with whom he made a promise a promise that he was FINALLY about to keep when she died. She wants him to find the motive for which she's doing all this, as he's the one who claimed to care about motives. She wants him to understand her. However, if Battler had only remembered he made a promise with Shannon but hadn't connected it to Beatrice, for Beatrice there wouldn't be much point in him remembering. In a way you're right in saying that the promise is the core of Umineko as the promise is the motive that pushes MetaBeatrice to play such a game with Battler. But just Battler remembering the promise without recognizing it as a motive would have no meaning for Beatrice. That's why just remembering isn't the goal for me. Battler needs also to connect the dots. At least that's my interpretation. This, of course, doesn't stop you from coming up with a different theory on what Beatrice wanted, why she wanted it and how she went to archieve her goal. Umineko allows everyone to come up with his own theory after all. Last edited by jjblue1; 2016-02-21 at 18:43. |
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2016-02-24, 15:00 | Link #35534 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Hi
I have finished EP7 recently and I don't understand the whole thing. 1.: Maybe I haven't read properly, but what is the inescapable fate of Beatrice / Claire? 2.: What does Bernkastel mean with the "certain will", which Beatrice supposedly has? 3.: At the end of the main EP7, Willard (that was the Name, right?) has destroyed the Illusions. What does that mean? That thing has confused me, because it was super fast ... Does it mean that all the things mentioned in the scene had not happened --> literally "illusions"? I'm sorry for my bad english. I'd appreciate if you can answer my question, but if it is possible, do not Spoiler with EP ^_^ Thank you! |
2016-02-25, 13:08 | Link #35535 |
The True Culprit
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1. Her inescapable fate is basically her own death, which she arranged by her own hand, and her inability to see any point in living beyond October 3rd, 1986.
2. The certain will is why Lambdadelta supports her. It's her strong determination that makes the incident's outcome the same in every universe: When the seagulls cry, none are left alive. 3. It means he solved the mysteries.
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2016-02-25, 16:49 | Link #35536 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2016
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To 1: It may be a stupid (or unnecessary) question, but why has she arranged the serial murder? How did she trapped herself in that fate? 2: Why is her goal always reaching the same result in every world? I thought that she wants to have a universe in which she could live with happiness (Lions world)?! 3.: I made a mistake with that question. I meant, that the "solution" by Will was a little bit ... short and vague. You don't get a detailed answer to the illusions :/ Have I to accept, that the mysteries in the games before EP7, solved with Will's black sword won't be explained further or that the mentioned mysteries in the scene didn't happen? I'm confused ^__^ |
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2016-02-25, 17:42 | Link #35537 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Although she wants to find happiness she doesn't believe she can. Hence her goal ends up being killing herself, although she thinks at different settings to do so. Also keep in mind that Beatrice ultimately died in 1986 along with almost everyone who was in Rokkenjima as explained by Ange, however it's unknown HOW. Hence an universe in which she can live a happy life can't exist. Quote:
Ep 7 manga version however explains Will's solutions with a bit more details. Back when Ep 7 was released Ryukishi wanted to let readers more time to think at the solutions so in a way Will's 'solutions' work as additional hints and decided that, by the time Ep 7 manga version would be released, readers would have had enough time to think at things on their own and he could release the solutions. Ep 8 manga version also added some extra solutions. Also some solutions were also released in side materials (tips and interviews). As you said you're at Ep 7 I've been trying not to spoil you. I take you're reading the VN. I recommend you giving a look at Ep 8 manga version as Ryukishi himself retconned many things in it, explaining everything better, making the whole more emotional and more meaningful (many were unsatisfied with Ep 8 VN version but loved the manga version). |
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2016-02-25, 18:21 | Link #35538 |
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Join Date: Feb 2016
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Maybe I should play again the game from the beginning, because I haven't reasoned / thought enough about the riddles.
There is A LOT of discussion about Umineko. This topic alone has >1700 pages ... I wonder how so much people / readers were able to think of own interpretations, solutions etc. Perhaps I don't have the experience with mystery-stories or I am stupid and superficial. Annoying. Thank you for the explanation. |
2016-02-25, 20:32 | Link #35539 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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2016-02-26, 03:34 | Link #35540 |
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Join Date: Feb 2016
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This thinking game has his own difficulty... Maybe that was the aim of Ryukishi He wrote in the afterword of the 2nd Volume of the higurashi manga that he wants to drown the readers in the sea of keys. That's true for Umineko, too.
Additionally, people like me beginning with Umineko late (i.e. 201X, exactly November 2014) don't have the advantage to discuss the plot in 'real-time'. Speaking in terms of time Umineko is now old. Another question: I don't get why Battler's return in 1986 was that bad. Bernkastel and Will said that 1985 or 1987 would be fine, but 1986 was bad. I haven't recognized the reason for it. What was the last year Battler had visited Rokkenjima before he left the Ushiromiya family? Was it 1979 oder 1980? Last edited by Sethalak; 2016-02-26 at 06:48. |
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